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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2013 15:52:57 GMT -5
WHEW I Have not forgotten about you sorry!! Work has been wild this week! Ok so I did consult with the other mentors regarding your menu, just to make sure I'm not neglecting to tell you anything, or possibly misinforming you on anything. The general consensus is to cut back on the organs, and as far as heart go, you could/need to add at LEAST another 1/2 meal of heart. You are currently feeding the equivalent of 2+ organ meals a week, and it needs to be more around 1 - 1.5 meals per week. With heart, you also want to feed around 1 - 1.5 meals per week. Right now you're at about 3/4 meal a heart per week, going by what you previously told me. As for your concerns regarding feeding grind - fear not! That's all I feed my boos, plus the bone-in pieces (necks, chicken parts, feet, etc). I was informed that it is referred to as a "Frankenprey" diet because it really is the whole animal (most of them are anyway), so it's kind of like feeding whole prey. The Whole animal grinds include bone and everything so they are still getting bone with pretty much every meal. It is my impression that you can't really "over do it" with bone-in parts. Some people feed strictly whole prey, so they're getting tons of bone every day. Can't really go wrong with lots of bone Helps with the jaws and chewing. Some of the whole grinds do include organs, as you said, but the ratio isn't 100% gauranteed to be high, so of course you still want to do the 1 - 1.5 meals per week. It was also my impression from my mentor and the others when going through my switch that the rabbit organ grind is the most complete/balanced, and you should generally only have to feed one whole meal of it per week, but could still feed another 1/2 of that or beef organs. Or whatever other organs you mix up. The other items you listed sound like good choices to me. I think if the dehydrated items are only used as treats, then there isn't need to worry about whether or not he will reap any benefits from them. They won't do him any harm, I can tell you that! The example of giving him the quail feet and pork and turkey chunks is perfectly fine. Sounds like a good meal to me! Love your new picture!! Wish mine were still cuddly. They're all "too cool" for mom now!
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2013 16:04:49 GMT -5
Thanks! I have a feeling he'll grow out of his cuddly phase as he grows up, so I'm getting as much of it as possible while I still can! Lol Thanks for clearing up all my questions it looks like I might just have to go with grinds now as they sound a lot more complete and provide a much better variety than what I currently have available. My only question now is, is there any way you could translate the "meals" instructions into ounces? I comprehend them better when it's completely cut and dry like that as I don't want any miscommunication on my behalf from thinking meals are a certain weight when they're actually supposed to be more or less than what I plan...should I be feeding him an extra 2-4 oz of heart and cut back on his soup? I thought they were supposed to get 2 oz each of liver and organ, making a total of 4 oz for the entire week, therefore giving 4 meals of 1 oz should be right?
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Post by Sherry on May 2, 2013 18:29:03 GMT -5
Sorry- buttng in here "Meals" with ferrets are however much they'll eat. It can't be precise. One day they may eat 6oz, the next 3-4oz. Just plan on an average of what they USUALLY eat. This is why I have two days worth thawing at a time. Sometimes they demolish it and look for more, other times they eat half and I just supplement with a half serving.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2013 18:41:33 GMT -5
Thanks Sherry!
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2013 18:05:05 GMT -5
Okay, so I've been doing some math, and the order I made would be around 17-20 lbs, making it at least 275 ounces, which would be at least 60 days of food, or 2 months. The cost would be right around $100 total, including shipping which would break down to around $50 per month. Does that sound like a reasonable cost per month to be feeding grinds for a single ferret? This last month I spent way too much on food because I didn't really know what I was doing (spent at least 75-85). I'd really like to not have to buy anymore food for him until the hare today stock I would get runs out so should I increase the organ amount? Sorry if this is weird math to be asking... if you haven't noticed I'm a very number oriented person. I'll probably end up doing the math myself in a minute but since organs are an important part of his diet I wanted to make sure I got the amount right...and since I'll be feeding only off of the hare today order (otherwise I'll go crazy spending way too much money at the store on the same things) is there anything else I should add to make sure it's a complete diet?
Edit: is there anywhere I can find info on feeding grinds? Like since most of my grinds are whole prey or meat/bone/organ, can I find what percent of each is in the grind, if it'd be complete, and if not what parts need supplemental additions? Idk if that makes sense... I just know I saw a post here saying most of these grinds are "dog" grade, so they have less bone than ferrets need so I'd like to know how much more he'll need.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2013 23:49:39 GMT -5
Hey there! Let me get with you tomorrow (Saturday) on this. Ill be able to run to my parents' house and use an actual computer. I have a little info on the grinds, but for the most part they do the trick. And remember, you need to cut back on the organs a bit, so maybe you won't need to order as many . The price range is about right. You don't want to know what my last order cost LOL! Was 50 lbs. 'Nuff said! Will definitely get with you if not tomorrow then Sunday so that you can place your order. Keep in mind it usually takes them a few days to "process orders." I was not aware of this the first time I ordered and had to run all over the world finding freeze dried foods to feed them until it came in.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2013 23:58:58 GMT -5
I still have at least 2 weeks of frozen food left so it's not an issue
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2013 12:22:14 GMT -5
OK I swear I didn't forget about you!! Sorry my weekend internet is so spotty right now. It sucks for everyone. So this is what I have down that you are ordering: 1 lbs. rabbit organs 3 lbs. coarse ground goat 30 quail feet 1 lbs. whole ground quail 3 lbs. coarse duck 5 lbs. pork trim 3 lbs. turkey pieces dehydrated gullet and stuffs for treats What are you doing for heart? The beef heart you find at the store? If not, you will need to add some heart to your order. I *think* 1 pound of organs should last you a couple months with just one ferret. And this is optional, but you might want to get at least a pound of ground chicken or something kind of "normal" in case he turns his nose up at the duck, goat, and/or quail. Or at least have some chicken breasts or something from the store on back up. The rabbit organs are pretty balanced. The following is a quote from my mentor (katt) during my own switch, regarding the grinds on hare today: If you are sticking with the commercial raw for this (totally fine) here are some things to make note of: The GROUND CHICKEN ORGANS are NOT organs. It's heart (muscle), liver (organ), and gizzards (muscle). While the heart and gizzards are good, it would not count as a full heart or full organ meal. If you gave this you might want to feed say 3 meals of this a week. Or 1-2 meals of this plus another meal of one of the other organ grinds. You can mix and match it as much as you please, as long as it balances out properly. www.hare-today.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_45&products_id=67
The GROUND RABBIT ORGANS are 2/3 organs (liver and kidney), 1/3 heart. It is a great mix. This you might feed once a week with an additional meal of all heart for another meal. www.hare-today.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_45&products_id=234
The GROUND BEEF ORGANS are a mix of organ (liver, kidneys, lungs) and muscle meat )heart, gullet and trachea) so you could give this for a meal, and consider it approximately 1/2 an organ meal, then feed one other meal of roughly 1/2 organs (say the chicken or rabbit organ meals) and another meal of heart. www.hare-today.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_45&products_id=41
The GROUND BEEF PANCREAS is a great organ source, but keep in mind that HALF of the organs should be liver. So you could purchase the pancreas, and mix it in the blender (or whole if you move to chunks) with an equal amount of liver meat. That could then be used for one complete organ meal. www.hare-today.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_45&products_id=43
OTHER ORGANS that you can order from Hare Today are whole kidneys and liver. These can be "ground" in the blender, or if we introduce them to chunks, fed whole. A complete organ meal would be half liver, and half other organs. So you could feed half liver, then half kidney. Half liver and half pancreas. Or half liver, 1/4 kidney, 1/4 pancreas. Feel free to mix and match it, keep it varied as long as the overall balance is kept intact.
HEART: I would suggest ordering some heart from Hare Today. Whatever species you want to pick are up to you (pork, beef, chicken, turkey...) and feel free to pick multiple. You can never have too much heart on hand. It is super important for them as that is their primary source of taurine - which is an absolutely essential nutrient for their optical and brain function. It can be fed whole if you decide to, or you can always toss it in the blender (hearts and organs are super easy to blend). If you keep a supply on hand you can use it to give either one full heart meal a week, or to supplement the heart content of one of the organ grinds so that it equates to a full heart meal a week.
Remember, the idea is to have (in addition to their commercial ground meals) one full meal of organ (1/2 liver 1/2 other organs) and one full meal of heart.
Read more: holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/11422/rinroses-switching-thread-hurricanekatt?page=8#ixzz2SX77vszLHopefully that helps you a little? Also note the following: The TURKEY PIECES MIGHT include heart, liver, and gizzard. Gizzard is just more muscle meat. So this choice is mostly a muscle/bone equivalent for a meal. The COARSE GROUND GOAT is a good balance. Says the whole goat including lung, kidney, heart, and bones. PORK TRIM will strictly be a muscle meal. QUAIL will be another good balance, as it doesn't say it's excluding anything. QUAIL FEET should be a good add-on. I think you will be safe to add another 1 - 1.5 meal of organs during the week, if you are strictly feeding from this order. And of course the meal of heart. The descriptions on Hare Today are relatively accurate, so just watch out for the ones like the turkey pieces where it says MIGHT include yada yada yada. Otherwise, if it says its in there, it's in there. I know you like numbers, but there's really no way to really get a ratio on these. Unfortunately, as Sherry said about meals, ounces just aren't very realistic when it comes to this stuff, especially commercial grinds. If you don't mind, give a shot at making a menu or two for a balanced diet utilizing what you are ordering, plus whatever heart you are using. That will help us move in the right direction. Your order looks pretty good, just need to know about the heart
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2013 12:27:19 GMT -5
5 lbs turkey grind (15-20% bone) 5 lb beef grind (7% bone) 5 lb duck grind (15-20% bone) 5 lb pork grind (10-15% bone) 1 lb ground chicken organs 1 lb rabbit organs 2 lb duck feet 2 lb chicken necks 1 lb duck hearts Read more: holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/11798/balancing-mince-ground-diet#ixzz2SXBzWSxWJust saw that you posted this elsewhere so your order is different than what you initially sent. Please refer to my previous post regarding Chicken Organ grind. You might want to stick with rabbit and beef organs, or if you want to feed the organs more frequently in a week, the chicken ones are fine as well. The rest of your order looks great. The feet and necks should still provide a good extra source of bone, and you can even feed more chicken/whatever parts you find at the store if they meet the no injection requirements Can't really give too much bone. Still give the menus a try Then we can see where to go from there! You're doing great!
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2013 12:48:51 GMT -5
Thanks! Sorry I forgot to post my updated order on here. Once I deposit my paycheck today I will probably finalize my order, but at the moment I have decided to replace the chicken organs with an additional lb of rabbit organs and decided to remove the duck heart as I realized I still have plenty of chicken heart left, and can find chicken and cow heart readily at my grocery store. My plan for freezing is to separate each grind into 2 oz per bag, and the organs will be bagged with either a duck foot or chicken neck per serving.
Menu example: Monday - turkey CG beef CG
Tuesday - rabbit organs with duck feet (1/2 organ meal) duck CG
Wednesday - pork CG turkey CG
Thursday - cow heart (full meal) chicken necks (full meal)
Friday - beef CG duck CG
Saturday - turkey CG rabbit organs with duck feet (1/2 organ)
Sunday - Whole mouse 1/2 chicken heart, 1/2 chicken neck
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2013 14:05:43 GMT -5
I'm double checking your menu with some of the other mentors so that I don't steer you the wrong way!
That being said, remember you don't have to limit his meals to 2 ounces. If he's still hungry, put more out. I leave mine out for up to a day and a half, sometimes 2 days (depends on how it looks/smells and if it seems like they even enjoy what I put down), so worst case scenario, you can leave it out a while and he will eat as he is hungry. I just feel as though limiting to 2 oz per meal might be cutting him a little short. could be wrong, but that's my take. As I said, I'm double checking with others to make sure.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2013 14:08:49 GMT -5
Oh, I know. I just use 2 oz cause it's easy to portion. I always have 3 bags out a day, that way if he is still hungry I'll give him the third, if not then his breakfast for the following day is defrosted. It's not his set-in-stone meal size, just how I have them portioned because I can use those small snack size bags and feel it saves more space and gives me more room to mix and match his daily meals.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2013 14:57:31 GMT -5
Which CG Beef are you buying exactly? Some of them contain organs, some don't, which will slightly effect the dietary needs and your menu. The rest of your grinds contain organs as long as you bought the ones labeled [meat]/bone/organs, so that will help you meet organ requirements. Looks like you are meeting the requirement, but if you ever feed them an extra half meal of organs a week, it won't hurt a bit! Same with heart. This is some information regarding the whole prey that Katt shared with me when I checked in with her (in case you ever decide to feed more): "If one meal is whole prey, the remaining 13 meals need to be balanced. One meal does NOT really make a difference but if say he was eating 4 whole prey meals a week (2 days worth) that means that the remaining 10 meals need to be balanced. 10 % would be 1 meal instead of 1.5 meals. As long as there's some organ in some of the CG mixes, that should cumulatively fill in the missing 1/2 meal of organ. it would certainly not hurt them if she wants to offer another half meal of organ though." Her explanation was more numbers oriented so I thought maybe that would sit better with you Is anything unclear? I believe your menu is fine. Feel free to make up a few if you want. They never have to be set in stone as long as you follow the guide lines! I used to write a strict menu out every week and follow it to a T and that got to be annoying LOL! So I just started writing down what I fed them daily so I remembered to keep it balanced. Other mentors might (and are welcome to) chime in here if I'm wrong about anything. Or if they have better info than I do.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2013 14:59:11 GMT -5
Snack bags! Just saw that post. Know what you mean. I stick all of my stuff in zip lock bags and those glad-ware containers to make things easier. I'm waiting for our freezer to empty out a little more (or to just be able to buy a separate freezer) because I want to designate certain shelves to certain things (I.E. bone-in meats, grinds, organs, etc). These ferrets need their own house! haha!!!
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2013 15:16:36 GMT -5
Im buying beef/bone/organ/tripe. All of my CG mixes are meat/bone/organ but I'm not expecting a very substantial amount of organ in them, so I can definitely add an additional organ and heart mix meal if you think it's a good idea. Also, since the beef mix is low in bone, I will probably add chicken necks or feet on those days every once in a while to make it work better.
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