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Post by Heather on Apr 16, 2013 20:38:45 GMT -5
Name: McKenna HF Forum Username: violetdelusions 1. Where did you first learn about natural diets for ferrets? From the website www.forum.ferret.com2. Please describe the type of diet you would like assistance in switching your ferret(s) to. Be sure to include if you are interested in feeding whole prey (live or frozen-thawed) and if you are wanting to FULLY switch to a natural diet or PARTIALLY. If you are unsure what kind of diet you want to put your ferrets on, please express that and we can help you find the best type of natural diet for your ferret. I would like to switch him to a full meat, bones and organs diet with occasional whole prey. 3. Why are you interested in switching your ferrets to a natural diet? I am a strong believer and advocate in keeping animals' (especially exotics) diets as close to their wild diet as a domestic life can provide. The health benefits alone show that raw is right. 4. Do you understand that switching your ferret to a natural diet can be a lengthy, arduous process? Its not an overnight switch. It can be a commitment of several weeks or even months. Your HF Mentor will be more then happy to assist you in switching your ferret(s) to a natural diet, but you need to be equally as committed. If you aren't willing to tough out a potentially lengthy switching process, or if you have major life changes approaching (baby on the way, moving, starting school, getting married/divorced, etc) then it might be a better idea to wait on switching your ferret's diet until you have more time. Are you willing to make the commitment? Absolutely. 5. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names? Ages? Genders? Do they have any health problems? Are they overweight? Underweight? How long have you had each ferret for? I have one ferret. He is unnamed at the moment and just over 4 months old. He is most likely fully deaf, and is possibly a Waardy. He is at a pretty healthy weight for his age. I just got him yesterday. 6. What diet do you currently feed your ferrets? (Please include all treats, supplements, etc) He was fed a Marshall's diet at the store, and yesterday I was able to get him to eat soup and play around with a chicken drumstick. I plan to continue him on soup and take his progress to eating flesh and bones a bit slower. I bought salmon oil for him and drizzle it on his food to make it more appetizing. I have yet to feed him treats, but they will likely be either cooked chicken breast or chicken or liver jerky if I get around to making it. 7. Have you ever tried to switch your ferrets to a natural diet in the past? If yes, what happened? No, I have not. 8. What additional information about yourself or your ferrets would you like to share? I had a pair of ferrets about 4 or so years ago, an albino and a cinnamon, both girls who lived their lives out until they passed in my family's care. Unfortunately, at the time I knew very little about ferret health and diet and they were fed a mediocre kibble. I also have a cat and two dogs in my household, one is an elderly terrier mix (16 years old now) who generally minds her own business unless she sees you eating lol, the other dog is my parent's 8 month old Australian shepherd/pit mix. He's very hyper, but otherwise non aggressive. I have partaken in a sugar glider rescue program a couple years ago, where I learned a lot about gliders as well as most exotic animals and how they require a much more natural diet than most pets that have been domesticated over many hundreds of years. 9. How often during the week do you have access to a computer? At least once a day. 10. Please post a picture of each of your ferrets (if possible). Hi and welcome to the mentoring program. In a little while your mentor (Rinrose) will introduce herself and you can get started on a new adventure in natural ferret care and diets. Please remember to post regularly (daily or as per arranged with your mentor) so that your mentor can assist you move along safely in this adventure. Also note there may have been some changes in the application and how you should post so please review these before proceeding. If you have any questions feel free to either ask your mentor or any of the admins. If you experience computer difficulties or are going to be away, please notify your mentor and most of all relax and have fun . Your mentor is here to help you on this journey. ciao
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Post by katt on Apr 18, 2013 2:03:59 GMT -5
Hi Violet. Rinrose will be on to introduce herself but at the moment she is laid up with a really bad flu bug. I'll be checking in here to make sure you're doing okay. Congrats on the new baby! It will be helpful if you can post a detailed description of your little one's current diet. What are you feeding, what amounts, how often? Also it will help you, your ferret, and your mentor if you can start to locate sources of raw. Try to find at least 1-2 places that carry each type of meat you need so if one is ever out of stock you have a backup. You need to look for: - organs: liver, kidney, brain, spleen, pancreas, lungs, uteries, etc. You should Ideally have a least 2 different protein sources (i.e. Pork vs chicken) of liver and of 1-2 other organs. The more variety you can find of organ types and species the better. - heart: a RELIABLE source of heart, preferably 2 different proteins. If you have trouble finding this it would be good to have some taurine on hand just in case. - edible bone: you will want to find a few sources of EDIBLE bone. Chicken wings ate perfect, as are other small bones like Cornish game hen, turkey wing tips, etc. There are also a good number of medium bones that can be cracked open which will allow them to eat them. Stuff like chicken and turkey necks, chicken legs, turkey bones, small pork ribs, etc. - Muscle meat: you should look for a MINIMUM (more is always better!) of 3 protein sources. Pretty much anything raw meat fit for human consumption (that is NOT processed, preserved, or injected with saline) is okay for ferrets. Many things nog "fit for human consumption" is good too. Stuff like rodents, commercial raw pet foods, etc. Almost any animal you can think of is okay to feed. Chicken, pork, beef, turkey, pheasant, quail, ptarmigan, lamb (I highly recommend having them eat lamb aothey recognize it, it's great for allergies, IBD, and upset tummies), goat (very similar to lamb), venison, moose, bison, kangaroo....
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2013 10:54:36 GMT -5
Currently, his meals have been sort of all over the place as I'm trying to figure out the right ratios with Sherry on my other thread, but this is my plan as of right now:
Monday- AM: 2 oz of bone-in, smashed (chicken wings, chicken drumsticks, chicken necks, chicken backs, ocassionally the same options in cornish game hen, and in the future I will have a turkey in the mix, once I have room for it in the freezer) PM: 2 oz bone-in, smashed
Tuesday- AM: 2 oz pork muscle PM: 1 oz cow heart, 1 oz chicken gizzard
Wednesday- AM: 2 oz bone-in PM: 2 oz bone-in
Thursday- AM: 2 oz bone-in PM: 2 oz pork muscle
Friday- AM: 2 oz bone-in PM: 2 oz bone-in
Saturday- AM: 2 oz cow liver (occasionally young calf liver) PM: 2 oz misc. organs (I think I have to blend these together as he doesn't like most of them...choices: liver, kidney, lung)
Sunday- AM: 2 oz cow heart PM: 2 oz bone-in
I have one store that has the following options; cow heart, beef muscle, cow liver, pork muscle, chicken gizzards, chicken heart, cornish game hens, whole chickens, whole turkeys. Walmart has; (very unreliable source though, they didn't have much in stock last time I went there) whole chicken, whole CGH, whole turkey, cow liver, pork muscle, beef muscle.
I am now aware that I should try to find more liver sources. I do have a single liver from the whole chicken I butchered, but that won't be enough for a month. I will also be adding some beef muscle to the muscle days once I have room in the freezer for it.
ETA: I also plan on adding some whole and live feeder mice to the mix next time I go to the pet store, maybe one a week or so on bone-in days? Or maybe liver day...I'm unsure right now.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2013 14:20:20 GMT -5
Hi violet! I apologize for my delay in response - as Katt said, I've had a real fun virus to deal with, and we don't have the Internet at home, so I've been waiting for storms to clear off so I have se kind of connection on my phone. That being said, please excuse any typos! It sounds like you are already making great progress with your wee one! You're already much further along than I was when I initially switched. You are probably already well aware of the benefits of switching to raw, but I just wanted to reiterate what a wonderful difference it has made in my fuzzles! They seem much happier and their fur is wonderfully silky, and their truly is a big difference in their poops. I hope you continue to have success with switching Mr Ferret! I found this whole thing to be a huge learning process, and I look forward to working with you and having us both learn even more together. Have you found any particular protein that he just doesn't enjoy? You mentioned that he isn't too keen on organs - I can relate. I have found that mixing them in with other whole proteins (commercial ground pork, chicken, turkey, rabbit, etc) generally makes it easier. You just have to keep note of how much you mix in so that the ratios are kept in tact, since this sometimes means you have to add it to more meals a week to ensure they are getting everything they need. As far as mixing them together, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that either. These are the options that were recommended to me with my switch: 1/2 liver, 1/2 kidney 1/2 liver, 1/2 pancreas 1/2 liver, 1/4 kidney, 1/4 pancreas As long as liver is included, you can pretty much mix it as you please, and as your little buddy prefers. For the bone-in, are you mostly feeding chicken parts? You said you will eventually add Cornish game hen, etc, which is good. As Katt said, just make sure they are getting at least 3 different sources. Do you have any specific questions you would like addressed before we continue to move forward? It looks as though you are keeping the heart and organ ratios in god proportions. You don't have to feed all organs on just one day if you prefer to spread it out. My own babies tend to get runny poos with organs, so I try to space mine out, but ultimately that's up to you. Let me know if some of this doesn't make sense or if you have further questions, and I will get back to you! Excited to work with you!!!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2013 15:46:13 GMT -5
I do feel pretty lucky to be one of the fortunate few that has a ferret take to raw immediately ;D I was really expecting more of a rollercoaster than this.
etty much the only food I have had trouble getting him to eat is liver (and I don't blame him, it smells horrible!). I will probably end up making an organ soup, since I know he absolutely loves his soupie (I gave him some last night because he are all of his pre portioned food, it was gone in 10 minutes-it was frozen the entire time lol), I'll have to work out the proper "recipe" when I have more time and post it here for your review. I don't know if I should make it so that I give maybe a cube a couple times a week to space it out and recently yucky poop or if I should give a full weeks worth once a week...
Once I get a turkey or should have 5 sources of meat a week; 3 bone, 2 muscle, 2 heart, and 2 organ. Is that enough variety or should I add more? Oh, plus mice once I get some to make 6 sources.
Ithink that's all my questions right now, I'm about to head to work so if I think of more, I'll edit this. (totally know what you mean without phone mistakes btw, almost all of my posts are made on my phone and there are always a ton of typos or auto corrects that I have to fix before I post lol but some still go unnoticed)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 1:38:27 GMT -5
There are some great soupie recipes on here in various threads! Ill sort through some things and see if I can supply you with some that might be of help. Liver is definitely foul smelling haha!! All the organs are. When I try to just put straight organ grinds down, mine look at me like "REALLY LADY?!" ---well lucky me I just came back to this hours later. My cough medicine is keeping me wired so here I am at 1 am doing so recipe research for you. Forgive me if you've already seen this one, but this is what is widely promoted here on the forum for organ soupies: 8 oz chicken (or other meat) 1 Chicken liver (or 2 oz other liver) 2 Chkn hearts (or 1 oz other heart) 1/2 teaspoon eggshell powder I think once they get used to that, it will be easier to integrate a soup of strictly organs. It might just be a weening process. I definitely believe you should try adding other organs/meats as opposed to strictly liver. Again, it depends on your baby! You just want to make sure to keep it all balanced. Please do share any recipes you come up with as well! It was suggested to me that sometimes it's more enticing to them if you feed it in frozen cubes from an ice tray. You mentioned "cubes" though so you may already be on to this method Beyond organs the following is the general diet ratio you want to aim to maintain: 10% organ 10% heart 10-15% bone-in The rest non-heart muscle meat *again, you may already know this, just want to provide as much info as possible. I think your selections of proteins look pretty good. The more, the better, so don't feel forever bound to just the things you listed. I'm still introducing my children to new sources all the time! I did notice a majority of the muscle meats you listed were pork, and the chicken included with the bone in. But as long as you introduce the Cornish game hen and turkey I think that should give them even more choices. I know it all depends on what's available thought The runny poos are normal with the organs, so don't worry about that. I just found hat spreading it out by mixing it with other meats seemed to make it more manageable. Up to you!! Oh and you said that about them attacking frozen - mine absolutely love it too! It's great to give them a variety in how it's presented (thawed, frozen, etc). I never would have even thought about it had my mentor not suggested it, and I'm so glad she did!! That all might be a lot to digest (or maybe not) so please do let me know if you need more elaboration or clarification. I'm kind of all over the place right now thanks to meds, not being able to breath, and the ferrets trying to help me out with typing on my phone haha! Let me know if I missed anything. Oh one more thing - I'm guessing he's doing really well with the bone since you're feeding it often? Is he actually eating it, or still in the gnawing stage? If he's still gnawing, it's helpful to break them up and/or smash them (meat mallet, go nuts with a butcher knife, etc).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 2:33:20 GMT -5
Don't worry about the medicine brain lol I might have had a couple shots of whiskey tonight so my response will likely be a bit wonky too. The soup you posted a recipe of is the one I used to wean him onto raw (onto took one cube of it to get him off kibble), and he still loves it and gets it every few days. I wouldn't mind using that super maybe once a day to get his weekly liver in if it's balanced enough, if not maybe I could increase the ratios? I know he loves it so I should have no problem getting him to eat his liver that way, and yes, he loves frozen soup probably a lot more than thawed which has I found funny the first time. I don't use ice cube trays, as the only ones I have are like 1 teaspoon rounds that annoy me for some reason, but I do freeze soup in a pan and just slice it into serving size cubes once frozen. Finding out that he enjoys frozen cubes was kind of accidental lol, I just popped a few cubes know his denied one night before bed because he ate the rest of the food and before I could even get into bed the entire cube was gone ;D Yes, he is doing pretty well with bone. I usually just smash the whole meal with a mallet one or two times to break the bone into 3 sections, with the meat on and he eats it up pretty well. He leaves maybe 1/10th of the bone left in shards when I clean up in the morning. Also, I understand my variety is a bit limited at the moment, I plan to incorporate more muscle sources and organ sources as I gain additional room in my freezer for it... at the moment my freezer is so packed, I have stuff literally falling out of it every time I open it... On a completely random note, I just spent an hour cuddling with him sleeping on my chest and occasionally giving me kissing when he randomly wakes up your groom himself. It was precious
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2013 0:12:32 GMT -5
today was a bit of a weird day, and I could tell Javik wasn't happy with me. Normally I let him out of the cage all day until I leave for work at 2 (he's out for about 6 hours by then since I'm an early riser and then he gets out for an additional few hours when I get home before bed to tire him out and make sure he doesn't keep me up all night... well today I spent the entire day helping a friend move so he didn't get any time out of the cage until I got home from work. He was especially bitey tonight, which I thought might have been him showing me he was displeased with me but then I checked him cage and he barely are any of his morning wing! Gah. Normally he has no trouble with them, I always give him them with the bone smashed but intact to the meat and a few slashes in the flesh to give him somewhere to grip. Apparently today he wanted to be picky. It took me having to cut all of the flesh from the bones and cut it into tiny chunks, give him a frozen soup, and sprinkled some eggshells and Salmon oil on top. Oh boy. Now he's going nuts on it all! Silly man ;D
He did end up eating an additional 2 oz of muscle for dinner last night so I don't think he was too hungry all day. Last night alone he had 2 oz pork chunks with 2 oz beef steak scraps and trimmings from our dinner...tomorrow is liver day... neither of us are looking forward to that, I'm sure lol
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2013 11:01:48 GMT -5
Haha! Sorry I haven't forgotten you! I will post more in length this evening. It sounds like his bites and refusal to eat food until you did it a certain way were his ways of protesting to me. I've had that happen o me with all different kinds of animals. I especially learned with ferrets that they enjoy a consistent routine, even though it isn't always 100% doable. I adjusted my own schedule with them for times that I knew no matter what was going on, I would be very likely to be home. Just keep working with him and find a time that suits your schedule, even if its switching It to at night. He may "protest" at first but they take relatively easily to new schedules.
As I said before I will definitely be getting back to you this evening. I'm compiling a couple of things to share with you regarding organs and what not. I apologize for all the delays!!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2013 12:52:35 GMT -5
I almost always stick to this routine. Im home every morning for quite a while and home for 2-3 hours before bed. It was just a bit of a strange day yesterday. Not only with the moving but my parents also both were sent to the hospital for different reasons at different times. Turns out my dad has kidney stones and my mom went in with intense chest pains. They did tests on her heart that were all given the clear, so she got sent home and needs to return for some stress tests soon. But things are back to normal for Javik for the most part. My friend's new house has an extra bedroom that she's set up as a guest room for me with an extra cage from one of my old sugar gliders so if I ever visit her I can bring Javik with me and he can roam the room (it's ferret safe, only stuff in there is a bed and dresser, anything else is kept in the closet.)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2013 11:39:24 GMT -5
I think Javik has had the appetite increase that I've heard happens after a little while on the switch...Yesterday he ate two day's worth of food! So I'll be upping his intake from 2 oz to 3 oz until he starts leaving more leftovers again.
Also, it's about time I portion off and freeze the can of pumpkin I have lol, how much should he be having per day? Or maybe I should just add it to the organ soup next time I make it...
I've decided that I'll make that soup and give it to him on his bone-in days, so about 3-4 times a week to hopefully help regulate the yucky liver poop that makes a mess of everything it touches. I think what I would add to it would be: liver, kidney (hopefully I can find some...), pumpkin, salmon oil, and I can't think of anything else. If I can find additional organs I would add those, but they're extremely hard to find. And now I'm clueless as to portions...I would like to make enough soup for at least 2 weeks, but I don't know how much of everything I should be adding to it and how much should be in each ice cube, how many ice cubes I'd be feeding a day, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2013 19:54:58 GMT -5
I just got back from Walmart, I picked up some fleece for a no sew cage set (yay for fabric sales!!) and some meat. I got calf liver, beef stew chunks, and intestines. Do they count as organs? Cause that's just about all I could find... there was also tongue, but I don't have very sharp knives and I figured it's probably a pretty tough muscle to cut through. I plan on finding a cleaver either online or at an Asian market soon to make my butchering tasks easier, do you know any good brands or know of a thread that might have info on it? Sorry for all the questions, I do most of my shopping on the weekend so that's generally when all the questions pop up lol
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 14:17:33 GMT -5
Well that's lovely I responded to you a couple times from my phone and it appears it didn't post. So sorry!! As far as knives go, I'm not sure on brands but I can ask around. I just bought a really good one at target for about $13. I use a meat mallet to destroy bones. I usually look on amazon for reviews of brands for things like that.
As for pumpkin, it is good to make sure be squires a taste for it, but to the best of my knowledge, it's mainly used when a blockage is suspected or when they are sick. I will double check to make sure, but I really dont think it's something you want to feed too regularly. Again, I will double check that and get back to you on it.
What you bought should be fine for now. On the intestines does it specify which intestines exactly are included? Also, make sure none of it is injected with saline or preservatives. Definitely will need to find other protein sources aside from beef, even with organs. The soup recipe I have you earlier that you said you've been using is only for a "balanced" diet, so you will need to gradually remove the chicken/meat chunks until he will eat just the organs mixed together.
Feed him as much as he will eat! He will eat more at first as his body starts to soak I'm and eat up all those nutrients he's been lacking. After a while it'll slow down a little. As long as you keep the general balance in tact, portion size is kind of irrelevant. Ferrets self regulate so he shouldn't have a problem with over eating.
If other sources of protein are not going to be available, would you be open to ordering? (IE fr HARE today - that's where I get my stuff from). It can be pricey, but you really have to make sure they are getting a variety of animal sources.
Let me ask on the other questions and get back with you. I'm posting this from my phone again (was sent home sick still) so hopefully it goes through!!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 14:48:05 GMT -5
I'm sorry you still aren't feeling better I can order online, but my only problem is freezer space, aren't places like hare today bulk suppliers only? I am almost positive the intestines didn't have saline as I had checked all my meat when I got home (forgot to check at the store) and will now be returning a turkey because of saline injections. I totally understand the phone frustrations... sometimes when I try to post my phone randomly restarts itself before I get your send! It drives me nuts. I just went to petco to return some items I had bought and picked up some pinkies... I just spent $8 for 4 pinkies and a hopper. Feels like quite a rip off... I might just have to invest in a rodentpro order :/
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 16:10:33 GMT -5
So you are going to go ahead and see if he will eat the live prey?
As for the pumpkin - I was wrong haha! Small amounts daily can help keep things regular, especially during shedding season (quoted from a ferret friend). Just don't over-do it.
The least amount you can order from hare is 5 lbs. they say "bulk" but packing for things like ground organs (if you wanted to go that route) come in packages varying from 1 to 5 pounds and its packaged like a roll of hamburger meat, so it doesn't take up much space at all. You may need to look in to it if it doesn't seem like you'll be able to find a good selection. Something to keep in mind at least. Just be sure to read the contents if you get the ground, or let me know what you're thinking about getting, because some don't include all of the ideal organs. For example, if you got beef ground organs, you'd have to feed more than 1 meal weekly I'm order to meet Javick's needs. However, if you were to get the rabbit organs, those are more complete, and one meal a week is sufficient.
***EDIT EDIT EDIT*** PLEASE READ!! I was initially given incorrect information. Do MOT feed pumpkin regularly. Maybe give it to him in very small amounts a couple of times so that he has a taste for it. It is used for stomach upsets (blockages, IBD, etc). Salmon oil is ok 2-3 times a week, otherwise it can cause diarrhea.
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