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Post by Heather on Apr 16, 2013 20:34:23 GMT -5
Name: Ashleigh HF Forum Username: Okami 1. Where did you first learn about natural diets for ferrets? The holistic ferrets forum page on facebook 2. Please describe the type of diet you would like assistance in switching your ferret(s) to. Be sure to include if you are interested in feeding whole prey (live or frozen-thawed) and if you are wanting to FULLY switch to a natural diet or PARTIALLY. If you are unsure what kind of diet you want to put your ferrets on, please express that and we can help you find the best type of natural diet for your ferret.
I'm seeking to change my ferrets to a completely raw diet. I'm ok with feeding them whole prey but only mice and i would buy them frozen. I'm pretty much clueless on what to do here but so far i am feeding them chicken necks, lamb heart and lamb kidney just to get things started. I need all the help i can get sadly.
3. Why are you interested in switching your ferrets to a natural diet? Up until a week ago i thought kibble was the best thing for ferrets. then i stumbled across the holistic ferrets forum facebook page and received a strong wake up call. I want what is best for my babies.
4. Do you understand that switching your ferret to a natural diet can be a lengthy, arduous process? Its not an overnight switch. It can be a commitment of several weeks or even months. Your HF Mentor will be more then happy to assist you in switchng your ferret(s) to a natural diet, but you need to be equally as commited. If you aren't willing to tough out a potentially lengthy switching process, or if you have major life changes approaching (baby on the way, moving, starting school, getting married/divorced, etc) then it might be a better idea to wait on switching your ferret's diet until you have more time. Are you willing to make the commitment? Yes, I don't care how long it takes or how hard it is. I want what is best for my girls.
5. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names? Ages? Genders? Do they have any health problems? Are they overweight? Underweight? How long have you had each ferret for? I have two ferrets. Their names are Sable and Panda. Sable will be 6 months old in a few days. Panda is 4 months old as of a few days ago. they are both female. no known health issues. Both good weight range. I have had Sable since January 5th this year. She was three months old when i got her. We got Panda on January 31st and she was 2 months old.
6. What diet do you currently feed your ferrets? (Please include all treats, supplements, etc) They are currently on kibble (the brand is called Advance and we feed them the kitten one) They get nutrigel as a treat. We recently (this week) began giving them lamb heart, lamb kidneys and chicken necks to see how they respond to raw meat. so far it seems to be going well.
7. Have you ever tried to switch your ferrets to a natural diet in the past? If yes, what happened? No, never.
8. What additional information about yourself or your ferrets would you like to share? Nothing seems relevant at the present time but i'm happy to answer any questions.
9. How often during the week do you have access to a computer? all day, every day.
10. Please post a picture of each of your ferrets (if possible). Please find attached a picture of my girls. Sable is the lighter coloured, Panda is darker.
Hi and welcome to the mentoring program . In a little while your mentor (Bitbiter) will introduce himself and you can get started on a new adventure in natural ferret care and diets. Please remember to post regularly (daily or as per arranged with your mentor) so that your mentor can assist you move along safely in this adventure. Also note there may have been some changes in the application and how you should post so please review these before proceeding. If you have any questions feel free to either ask your mentor or any of the admins. If you experience computer difficulties or are going to be away, please notify your mentor and most of all relax and have fun . Your mentor is here to help you on this journey. ciao
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Post by bitbyter on Apr 17, 2013 18:07:16 GMT -5
Hi Okami! I'm looking forward to helping you get your fuzzbuts onto a steady healthy diet of raw proteins. For a little bit more information about who I am and my experience with ferrets, you can read my profile in the mentor thread here: holisticferret60.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=switch&action=display&thread=176I believe you have already started from what I can remember from the Facebook page (that's great). If you could fill me in a little bit about how your switch is going so far and what you think you need help with we can get started. Also, if you could answer / do the following it would help us a lot: 1. Please post some overhead pictures of your ferrets similar to what I did in my own switch: holisticferret60.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=success&action=display&thread=9654&page=1 . You can use oil to make them hold still while you take the picture. 2. Please weigh your ferrets a.s.a.p and post their current weights. (It's best to do this regularly during a switch to make sure they are eating enough). This is for their health and your nerves (a switch can be stressful on you as well as them). 3. Let me know if you have found a few local sources for your proteins and what variety of meats you are currently feeding. If you are having any trouble locating stuff, let me know as I can make some suggestions on where to look. 4. Are you preparing your meals on a daily basis or have you made up a big batch for the freezer? 5. Do you have access to canned pumpkin? This is pure pumpkin with no other ingredients (not pie filling though you usually find it in the same part of the store). If not look for raw pumpkin as it is easy to cook and make up a batch for the freezer. 6. Have you fully pulled their kibble or are you supplementing with it still? 7. What kind of setup do you have for your ferrets (free roam in the house, free roam in a ferret room, cage & room, cage & full house, cage and scheduled play time, etc). As this is my first mentoring experience I am looking forward to helping you with your switch. Do not hesitate to ask me anything. If I don't have the answer or am not 100% sure, we have a great team here at the forum to help us through!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2013 21:04:16 GMT -5
Hello Bitbyter! I can't even begin to express how excited i am My two girls are Sable and Panda. Sables weight is currently 26.32oz and Pandas weight is currently 27.24oz. for the time being i have been feeding them the menu in the picture i have attached, but i have been doubling it up as they eat it within 7-10 days! I am able to obtain, from my butcher, a whole rabbit (i think it's called dressed, it has no fur or organs) though personally i would prefer to avoid it if possible as my girls refuse to eat it and it's expensive... i can also obtain lamb heart, lamb liver, lamb kidney, chicken liver(i've been avoiding this as it's expensive), chicken necks, "gravy beef" which is a more fatty cut of steak i think... i can obtain mince but i wasn't sure if it was healthy... the setup i have is sort of varied, sometimes they are allowed to run around the whole house but it's not often as we have cats who aren't fond of ferrets. basically they are let out of their cage to roam my bedroom whenever i am home and able to supervise. i posted a video showing my setup on facebook, i have pasted a link to the video below www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=122185494643969&set=o.158560084258398&type=2&theateri have completely pulled their kibble as they are both happily eating the menu i have posted. also i am able to obtain frozen rats and mice from my local pet stores but i've avoided it as i'm not sure how to say "this is food" nor how to safely store/prepare them... i have been using raw pumpkin, but i haven't been cooking it... i just use the pumpkin we buy from the supermarket and cut a piece off and measure out a rough amount depending on whether i am making a single batch or double. I will hold off going to the butcher for more meat until i hear from you if possible but otherwise i will just make a single batch for now. I look forward to working with you and am deeply grateful for your assistance I have posted pictures of my girls as requested... they were difficult please let me know if you need better ones
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2013 21:11:41 GMT -5
ok, pics didn't work!!! attempting again... Sable; Panda; Current Menu; Sorry bout that OH! and by the way, if you need to contact me i am happy to provide my mobile number so just let me know After reading your section in the "meet your mentor" page i am delighted to know that my mentor is a fellow nerd!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2013 21:12:46 GMT -5
oh and another thing... they just had a bath, so they are very fluffy in that pic
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Post by bitbyter on Apr 18, 2013 21:43:27 GMT -5
So are they currently just eating soup or have the progressed beyond that stage? You can usually move quite fast with younger ferrets once they are eating a raw soup. Where are you located (Australia I believe)? If you can at least post the city I could possibly assist you in finding a larger variety of meats (if you feel comfortable with that). I don't think I've ever heard of chicken liver being expensive but you never know . Something sneaky you can do is ask the butcher where he orders from (maybe not the owner but an assistant). It is cheaper to cut out the middleman if his supplier is local. Ah yes, I watched that video but had forgotten it was yours. Great setup (mind you I don't think I'd personally have a litter box under the bed)...Then again it would be motivation to clean it pretty regularly ;D. Also, be careful with them having access to under your bed. Ferrets are notorious for digging into box springs and mattresses. The pictures are good. I see they are still chunky little babies!! Don't be surprised if they really thin down after their first winter. My Wilma came to me as a chunky baby and I can't believe the difference now: Wilma as a little chubster: Wilma now: She was so skinny this winter (she has her seasons backwards) but has finally started putting weight back on
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Post by bitbyter on Apr 18, 2013 21:49:16 GMT -5
For now, make sure you weigh them at least once or twice a week so that we can track how they are doing and can watch for any alarming drops in weight. As kits I am excepting that we shouldn't have to many issues with this though.
If they aren't hesitating at all with the soup at this point I think we can try lowering the amount of water in the soup. Once we get to where it is more like a loose pate, then we can try slivers of whole meat and maybe even mince.
What are you making your soup in? In lowering the water content we have to be careful as some machine can burn out if there isn't enough water in the mix.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2013 23:55:56 GMT -5
I am currently living in Launceston in Tasmania, there are two local pet stores i go to for my supplies, petbarn and the animal tuckerbox, bertie the bargain butcher is where i get my meat... When i say it's expensive it's more that i am a uni student and my funds are limited, currently the diet my girls are on is $10 per batch, i can't afford any more than $30 per fortnight... but i can always talk to my fiance an negotiate going halves in diet if necessary... I chop up their food into pieces roughly the size of the first joint on my thumb. the pieces are no smaller than my thumb nail. then i put it in a small blender and blend it up until it's like thick paste, but Panda wouldn't eat that so i'm forced to water it down. Sable happily eats big chunks of meat, Panda is the difficult one... I'm happy to add less water to this batch, in fact i can probably add no water at all and spoon feed panda a little bit if she doesn't like it, she will likely mung on it like crazy when she realises it's the same As for the under-the-bed issues i check once per week to make sure they aren't being naughty, but they have yet to even so much as scratch at our mattress so, as far as their current menu goes, is there anything i should change? I'm only making a single batch for now because i wanna save some money in case you recommend something i could try Also i am happy to weigh my girls once per week of course, i will upload the pics to this thread? and do you need top down pics every week too? Thanks for your help!!!
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Post by bitbyter on Apr 19, 2013 0:36:27 GMT -5
No additional pics needed unless we start getting concerned about them losing weight. For now the main goal is to start weaning Panda off the soup and get her to where Sable is now. You could try small slivers of meat dipped in the soup. Hold her and try feeding her these slivers to see if she will chew on them. As for Sable, have you tried anything with bones in it yet to see if she will attempt crunching the bones?
I'd love it if you could try to find a range of bone in meat sources so we know what is available to you in your area when they are ready for that stage. Good bone in meats are chicken wings, chicken necks (which you seem to have located), chicken thighs or drumsticks (a cleaver is good to help with those), turkey necks, whole quail (could be hard to find and expensive), rabbit (same comment as quail). You could see if you could locate any local sources for small game birds or animals (wallaby?).
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Post by bitbyter on Apr 19, 2013 0:56:48 GMT -5
How much freezer space do you have? The real key to frugality & work load with a raw diet is buying in bulk and freezing meals ahead of time. That way you can go to your suppliers and order in kg at a time (which they will often give you a discount on). If you are just buying retail packages of the meat you'll find you end up wasting quite a bit unless you can freeze what you aren't using. For example I'm picking up 4.5 kg of turkey gizzards tonight because they didn't have them on hand the last time I went. You can also take advantage of sales if you have a decent amount of freezer space. This is a great post for those of you living in Oz about available proteins for you ferrets: holisticferret60.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=questions&action=display&thread=9571
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 6:59:19 GMT -5
I have pretty much no freezer space, but if needed i can possibly purchase a small freezer or something... dunno what is available will look into it... I'm more than happy to buy per week, or however long their meat can be in the fridge for, but freezer space is tiny thus no room for fuzzy food... I HAVE GOOD NEWS!!! i gave sable and panda a chicken neck each, and as i am sitting at my desk typing this post panda is in her cage munching away at the chicken neck!!! sable isn't hungry though lol I assume this is good i also chopped up bits of gravy meat and put into their bowl to see how they handled it and i'm fairly certain they both ate it extremely excited!!! Now... back to the topic at hand... I can obtain chicken necks and wings easily, i'm happy to get both if that's best... I cannot obtain any small game, nor quail, nor turkey necks. i assume drumsticks are the chicken legs with the thick bone and the big bit of meat at the top? my local butcher most likely sells those but if not the supermarket certainly does, and thighs we buy all the time, but they don't have bones so maybe i'm thinking the wrong kind i can get rabbit but as i've said; i'd rather avoid that if possible... aside from the price i find it a tad... upsetting... another reason why i'm not sure how i'd go with providing whole frozen prey... but i'm happy to give it a go at least... ummm.... so yeah... but i just bought a lamb heart, a lamb liver, a lamb kidney, some gravy beef and chicken necks (which have now been eaten) so i will make up some food tomorrow morning after popping back on here to check your advice. i will go with no water this time and see if they will gobble it up i will also blend it a tad less so there is bigger chunks... just to see what panda will taste i will let you know if i have any luck or if she refuses feeling great about this so far!
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Post by bitbyter on Apr 19, 2013 8:22:45 GMT -5
That's great news!! I'd definitely suggest not pureeing everything you are currently buying at this point and try putting some slivers of meat & organ in their soup to see if they will eat it. You may also what to given them two bowls when you feed them so that you can see who is eating what. Another strategy it to feed one in the cage and one outside the cage so you know for sure who is eating what.
As for the rabbit, you can always ask the supermarket or the butcher to chop it up for you so you don't have to associate it with a cute bunny rabbit as much.
I've found some possible cheaper sources for meat in your area as well as locations that might have a larger variety of meat but it would be hard to take advantage of them without a freezer. I use a small dorm room sized freezer (like a small bar fridge). I think your mentioned you are at University? If Launceston is a University town you might have a good chance of finding one this size second hand. I'll post links to the places I've found later today when I have more time (at work at the moment).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 22:15:52 GMT -5
I am at university but i dont live on campus, otherwise i certainly would not be permitted ferrets i managed to organise/negotiate freezer space with the family... i get the door which is still very limited but i can fit 2-3 small containers in the door so that means i can just put aside meals Any extra sources of meat would be fantastic! i really appreciate you looking into it for me! i blended up 3/4 of their food today and left the rest and nice fine chunks no bigger than the nail on my pinky finger and sable was delighted but now panda won't even taste it... but she may not be hungry, she ate a bit of chicken neck this morning so she might not have the rumblies just yet... I have another batch worth in the freezer so worst case scenario is i just blend it up and feed them separate meals for a bit i tried scruff and stuff but she bit me rather hard so i guess she really doesn't want it we almost lost panda today... she slipped out of her harness whilst we were in the back yard today... she took off the second she noticed we grabbed her before she got too far but the dogs next door would tear her apart if they spotted her... still a bit shaken up from it I feel the need to ask; is there anything wrong with feeding them mush their whole lives? is it bad if they live on soup? I was under the impression that my current menu gives them what they need, so if they just ate that and i gave them whole chicken necks to keep their teeth strong is there anything wrong with that? i'm sorry if that sounds stupid... i don't want to offend in any way, i just stress that panda won't eat... so if she eats the soup and it is healthy and nutritious i'm not sure if i should force her to change... personally i'm happy to prepare whatever they need, i don't care if it's blended or chopped, i will do it. But they both eat the food as is... so i just wanted to ask this silly question i'm sorry if it offended you in any way... but anyway... what is it that ferrets require in their diet? is there a per week basis or per month or per fortnight??? Is the current menu they eat providing them with all their needs? i worry endlessly that they aren't getting everything they need.... I'm sorry for all the questions i will try panda out with this new chunky soup when she wakes up... fingers crossed!!!
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Post by bitbyter on Apr 19, 2013 22:46:45 GMT -5
Don't worry about asking questions, that is why we are doing this. The forum has a ton of information and it can be daunting to sort it all out yourself. That is why we have the mentoring program.
Your soup looks pretty balanced. Does Panda eat the chicken necks? Basically the soup can cover their nutritional needs but it won't help to clean their teeth and they could potentially end up with prolapsed rectums from always trying to defecate such soft foods. The eggshell / bone meal and pumpkin help with that but it still isn't as good as solid food.
You shouldn't really need to scruff and stuff Panda unless she has gone more then twelve hours without eating and it shouldn't hurt her to let her go longer once (ferrets / weasels in the wild aren't always successful on the hunt). I got to a point in my switch where one of them was holding out moving to the next stage. A hungry belly was the final motivator and I didn't have issues after that. If leaving her hungry once doesn't work we may have to look at other strategies. I tend to see scruff and stuff as a last resort because it can associate negative experiences with what you are trying to get them to eat.
Do you know who is the alpha between your two? For a long time Socks would do most of her eating in the morning and Wilma in the evening. It took them quite a while to be comfortable eating at the same time. Also, socks was very shy about eating while exposed. Do you have a feeding den you could set up near where you feed them (a cardboard box with a hole in it would do). These two options (different feeding times & a den) might make her more accepting.
When you try to give Panda a small piece of solid meat or when she gets to a piece in the soup, what does she do? Does she spit it out, try to chew it and it falls out so she looses interest, etc?
I've tried harnesses for my two a few times but finally just gave up. Socks is terrified of them and will just lay on the ground and tremble. Wilma is an escape artist and seems to be able to get out of them no matter how tight I make it. I'd love for them to have time outside but after a few escapes I just won't risk it anymore. Others have had much better luck than I however.
Let's try this if you are willing. Get them good an hungry, say two or three hours later than you would normally feed them. Play with them hard for an hour or so before meal time and then prepare 1oz of meat slivers with 1oz of soup poured over top (also, let it warm up to room temperature as cold food isn't as stimulating scent wise). Give them each their own bowl and we'll see what happens. If you have a camera on your phone you could even record a video and post it so I can see how they are doing with that meal.
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Post by bitbyter on Apr 19, 2013 22:54:50 GMT -5
Here are some sources I have found: This is a list of meat packing plants is Tasmania but I think most of them are 45 minutes or longer from you. www.manta.com/world/Oceania/Australia/Tasmania/meat_packing_plants--C300B/This place sells game meats and I think is reasonably close to you/ www.yellowpages.com.au/tas/rocherlea/lenah-game-meats-13941842-listing.html?context=businessTypeSearch&referredBy=www.google.caA Poultry Farm, not sure about the distance though. www.yellowpages.com.au/tas/pipers-river/natureway-poultry-farm-13508395-listing.html?context=businessTypeSearch&referredBy=www.google.caAnother Poultry Farm that might be closer. maps.google.ca/maps?oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF-8&q=launceston+tasmania+farm+poultry&fb=1&gl=ca&hq=farm+poultry&hnear=0xaa7a0a35aa0653f9:0x403c94dd0de0f40,Launceston+TAS,+Australia&cid=0,0,17094359105597468380&ei=vxByUcfbFcXBqQGml4CoBw&ved=0CJQBEPwSMAM A bunch of butchers. maps.google.ca/maps?oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF-8&q=launceston+tasmania+farm+poultry&fb=1&gl=ca&hq=farm+poultry&hnear=0xaa7a0a35aa0653f9:0x403c94dd0de0f40,Launceston+TAS,+Australia&cid=0,0,17094359105597468380&ei=vxByUcfbFcXBqQGml4CoBw&ved=0CJQBEPwSMAM Lastly a pet food company in Hobart that sells raw. It will most likely be quite expensive though. www.vippetfoods.com.au/Home/0,271,1132,00.html
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