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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2013 7:57:08 GMT -5
Hi there...this is only my second post...but there is desperation behind it. Brief background: "Simon" was a rescue I found on the street while in NY. A few months after bringing him home, he began urinating bright red blood. I rushed him to the vet and after numerous tests, rads, etc...I found out he has cystine stones. Simon went through an arduous surgery and they removed over 14 stones, all massive in size and packed solid. Here is an image: and his xray: My vet at the time was not able to help me much with food solutions, so I have been trying to feed him low protein raw thawed wafers and doing everything I can to get as much water in him as possible. I was just not able to make a difference it seems... For yesterday I took him to our new holistic vet in Shawnee (Dr. Brad Roach - Best Friends) and the xray showed another full bladder! In about a year he grew a bunch of new cystine stones and now I'm completely distraught. I am looking into him having another surgery, because I cannot bear the thought of him becoming blocked. In the next few days though, he is on antibiotics, an herbal tincture for the bladder lining inflammation and possible pain, and a stone powder (primarily for crystals but we wanted to see if any relief could be attained.) All of these medications though won't help much until I can get the stones out of Simon...I just hope and pray that he will be able to make it through another surgery. I don't think Simon can do this every year...and emotionally I don't know how I will handle it. I have been reading everything I can get my eyes on about cystine stones...but there seems to be so little evidence of any kind of inhibiting treatment/diet...that I am feeling desperate. How can a wuzzle live on low protein? I need to find a way to at least get him his fats! I saw a couple threads in here related to cystine stones but it seems that those folks too, were in a quandary. IMHO, I believe that this is not caused by any one brand or manufacture's food. Everything I have read states that it is a hereditary predisposition to high protein and cystine production. Try as I might to lower his PH, he still made more and more stones... [img src="http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h352/JW_2012/Emoticons/ i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h352/JW_2012/Emoticons/T_T.png"].png[/IMG]
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2013 8:07:43 GMT -5
Could you please tell us exactly what his diet is? What brand and an ingredients list or link to the manufacturer's website if it's a commercial product and you don't have an ingredients list.
How often does he drink water? Is his water supplied via a dish or croc or bottle? Not drinking enough can be part of the problem as it keeps the urine more concentrated.
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Post by Heather on Mar 22, 2013 8:17:53 GMT -5
A possibility....and only that. Does he have any adrenal symptoms? I've got a wee boy who was blocked. We managed to heal his infection and then decided to treat some rather vague symptoms that could be adrenal with a DES implant. It appears that doing all these things has helped him heal. A low protein diet was not what we followed, he eats a regular raw diet, drinks out of bowls not bottles.....and watch him like a hawk. He's on his second DES implant and thus far has not blocked. I hope you find a solution for your poor boy. Azrael is an RC ferret. ciao
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Post by Sherry on Mar 22, 2013 8:46:20 GMT -5
A link to what he's eating would help. A link is starting to be made between peas/pea proteins, sweet potato(yam), and cystine stones. Having a genetic predisposition to them would certainly exacerbate it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2013 10:18:51 GMT -5
I'm so sorry to hear about this. We are hearing it SO often with the cystine stones A little over 3 years ago, I sought out this forum for the exact same reason with Jack. Now, it seems there is a new ferrent every week coming on here looking for help. I can tell you what I did with Jack and it kept him stone free for the last few years, sadly he passed in January from unrelated medical problems. Jack was on Halo cat food for a few months when he presented the typically symptoms of stones. Later, when I found out they were cystine stones, I started doing my research on diet and causation (I'm an organic chemist so I have the benefit of knowing a fairly broad amount of the science behind them.) Immediately, I found that animals that present with cystine stones have a genetic defect. That defect is exacerbated by a diet high in sulfur (methionine containing) foods. Peas have become a very common ingredient in dry foods so we see an increased problem. I put jack on a raw diet and avoided treats like eggs and he remained stone free until his passing.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2013 13:05:09 GMT -5
After dealing with this exact situation recently, and only being a few months post-op, I honestly can't answer any of your questions with certainty. We have switched over to a full freeze dried raw diet devoid of veggie protein (specifically sweet potatoes and peas), and we hope that his problem will not recur. The symptoms our ferrets are experiencing seem to be extremely similar to a problem that is becoming increasingly more common in male dogs- Cystinuria. Not sure the relevance as related to ferrets, but here is the info provided on dogs (if you google cystinuria in dogs, you'll find numerous clinical trials and studies being performed). www.caninecystinuria.com/FAQ.html
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2013 19:12:47 GMT -5
Thank you so much for such quick replies! Right now Simon is on Nature's Variety Instinct Raw - Grain Free Chicken Formula. Here is the ingredients link: www.naturesvariety.com/InstinctRaw/dog/chickenHe isnt a big fan of it, still have to mash and liquify and sometimes help him. He had been on Marshall foods before. I love the fact that the raw it is only 13% protein as the Marshalls was 38%. But still...something is obviously not working. I give him both a crock of fresh water daily (he loves to snorkel) and a bottle. My vet told me to salt his food just a tad to entice him to drink. When I get overly anxious and nervous I give him 12ml additionally by oral syringe 3-4 times a day. Simon peed a bit more today than he did yesterday... maybe the tincture is helping with the inflammation. Either way, I am taking Simon in for his 2nd cystotomy on Monday morning I hope he makes it through as well as he did last time!
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Post by Heather on Mar 22, 2013 19:29:28 GMT -5
A healing candle is lit for your wee boy. Good luck. Please keep us posted ciao
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2013 20:21:26 GMT -5
Um, that's not exactly 13% protein. It has to do with the math in regards to the moisture content. Dry kibble has very little moisture in it, so that started 38% is what you actually get. 13% in a raw diet is actually like, 80% or more protein I think. I'm not good at the math, but there is an equation you can do based on the moisture content. The protein on that product is much, much higher than the kibble. NVI is a good product though.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2013 20:30:09 GMT -5
Um, that's not exactly 13% protein. It has to do with the math in regards to the moisture content. Dry kibble has very little moisture in it, so that started 38% is what you actually get. 13% in a raw diet is actually like, 80% or more protein I think. I'm not good at the math, but there is an equation you can do based on the moisture content. The protein on that product is much, much higher than the kibble. NVI is a good product though. Oh wow...I had no idea. Have no idea about conversions when it comes to this! And both Simon and I say "Thank You" for the candle...as he tries to knock it over
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2013 20:33:11 GMT -5
A possibility....and only that. Does he have any adrenal symptoms? We did a full panel and nothing came back adrenal-wise...and he has not shown a single symptom of the like. He is a completely healthy, normally bouncing booger-butt except for his stone issue :/
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Post by darlene on Mar 23, 2013 1:39:26 GMT -5
Wishing Simon all the best for his surgery monday
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2013 2:05:35 GMT -5
Just a note on the conversion.
Guaranteed Analysis from the food you linked Crude Protein (min): 15.0% Crude Fat (min): 12.0% Crude Fiber (max): 2.0% Moisture (max): 65.0%
So there is 65% moisture. That means that there is 35% dry matter. You take the amount of each nutrient (here, protein, 15%) and divide it by the dry matter (35%) and then multiply by 100 to get the % of protein on a dry matter basis. 15/35 *100 = 42.9% protein
It is a common misconception that wet foods have less protein. It's always best to convert all foods to a dry matter basis in order to compare apples to apples. Hope the math made sense and hope your baby gets better!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2013 7:57:00 GMT -5
Ok, so it's not as much protein as I thought. I figured it would be more than that given that the product is 95% animal matter with most of that being meat.
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Post by Sherry on Mar 23, 2013 9:20:26 GMT -5
Also one other thing- since the raw is wet he will get moist of his moisture from that. No need to "salt" it. That's how they get animals drinking when they eat kibble. Extra salt is put into the food. Which in turn increases the chances of cystine stones: pennstatehershey.adam.com/content.aspx?productId=117&pid=1&gid=000346Eating less salt can also decrease cystine release and stone formation.
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