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Post by Heather on Feb 28, 2013 1:53:11 GMT -5
Name: Brianna HF Forum Username: Kitschrevolt 1. Where did you first learn about natural diets for ferrets? I first learned about raw diets in general at the pet store that I work at, but didnt consider a raw diet for ferrets until I started reading Holistic Ferret forum posts. 2. Please describe the type of diet you would like assistance in switching your ferret(s) to. Be sure to include if you are interested in feeding whole prey (live or frozen-thawed) and if you are wanting to FULLY switch to a natural diet or PARTIALLY. If you are unsure what kind of diet you want to put your ferrets on, please express that and we can help you find the best type of natural diet for your ferret.
Im not interested in a prey diet, but would like to switch to mostly commercial raw, supplementing with raw meaty bones and fresh chunks. I am still going to keep some kibble in the cage in the day time while I am at work, mostly in case of emergencies in which I cant get home ( this has never happened before, I just want to be prepared.)
3. Why are you interested in switching your ferrets to a natural diet? I have tried my furbabies on so many different types of high quality kibble, and they seem to do well on them for a couple of months or so. Then inevitably the poops start to get worse, and they just dont seem to be at their optimum. They arent bad perse, they still eat sleep and play, but when I read about other peoples ferrets, I feel like they could be happier and healthier. I know they arent sick, and I doubt itsa anything environment-related ( I clean their cage, litter boxes, blankets, etc regularly, they get lots of exercise, etc). SO my only conclusion is that they arent eating how they should be. 4. Do you understand that switching your ferret to a natural diet can be a lengthy, arduous process? Its not an overnight switch. It can be a commitment of several weeks or even months. Your HF Mentor will be more then happy to assist you in switchng your ferret(s) to a natural diet, but you need to be equally as commited. If you aren't willing to tough out a potentially lengthy switching process, or if you have major life changes approaching (baby on the way, moving, starting school, getting married/divorced, etc) then it might be a better idea to wait on switching your ferret's diet until you have more time. Are you willing to make the commitment?
I definitely am! I have spent so much time researching how to make my ferrets as healthy as possible, and I would do anything to keep them at their best.
5. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names? Ages? Genders? Do they have any health problems? Are they overweight? Underweight? How long have you had each ferret for?
a) Sebastian, male, 7, just diagnosed with adrenal, sometimes has recurring colitis ( perhaps due to allergies? not sure) had been losing weight but is stable now. b) Annabelle, female, 3. No health problems that im aware of. Not underweight, but she is a tiny girl! c) Jasper, male, 2, was VERY overweight when I got him, but has lost a healthy amount since then. Now hes just a chubby happy boy d) Felix, male, 2, very healthy! missing one front tooth ( extraction). e) Lucy, female, 1, perfectly healthy.
Ive had Annabelle and Sebastian since March of 2012, Jasper and Felix since June 2012, and Lucy since August 2012.
6. What diet do you currently feed your ferrets? (Please include all treats, supplements, etc) Right now they all get a kibble mix of Evo Ferret and Wellness Core Turkey and Duck. Sebastian also gets a soup mix of ground kibble, wellness core tinned food, and probiotics. This was to get his weight up and also to hide his antibiotics for his colitis in. They get N-Bones occasionally ( like half a stick each twice a month). ferretone weekly, and Turkey Purebites treats once or maybe twice a week.
7. Have you ever tried to switch your ferrets to a natural diet in the past? If yes, what happened? No 8. What additional information about yourself or your ferrets would you like to share? ive been trying to sneak bits of raw into sebastians soup the past couple days, and feeding it to everyone, but I have only had a little luck. 9. How often during the week do you have access to a computer? Every day 10. Please post a picture of each of your ferrets (if possible). I dont have a lot of clear pictures of each of them ( because they never sit still!) but heres a pic of four of them eating, and one of Sebastian that shows off his sad rat tail
Hi and welcome to the mentoring program. In a little while your mentor (Sherry) will introduce herself and you can get started on a new adventure in natural ferret care and diets. Please remember to post regularly (daily or as per arranged with your mentor) so that your mentor can assist you move along safely in this adventure. Also note there may have been some changes in the application and how you should post so please review these before proceeding. If you have any questions feel free to either ask your mentor or any of the admins. If you experience computer difficulties or are going to be away, please notify your mentor and most of all relax and have fun . Your mentor is here to help you on this journey. ciao
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Post by Sherry on Feb 28, 2013 9:10:59 GMT -5
Hello there! I'm Sherrylynne, and I'll be your mentor for their switch First, a little about me. I'm 54, and have my own housecleaning business here in Calgary Alberta. I have 4 cats, ranging in age from 11 yrs, to 19(only one would eat raw, unfortunately ). I also have 8 ferrets. Boris and Vincent(rip) came first, two brothers, a sable and albino. Then Sinnead(rip). I got her when she was 4. She passed at almost the age of 8, had adrenal for 3 years, treated with lupron for 2 of those. After that came my first deaf ferret, Lucrezia. A marked DEW. Then two foster ferrets, whom we fell in love with and adopted- Zeus(DIP) and Athena(DIP), both two years old at that time. Both were adrenal, and on lupron until they passed from adrenal related lymphomas at the age of 5. After that, a little abused ferret we called Willow. She was the worst fear biter I've had, although now she's become a sweetie . Then, Emily. 1 month younger than Willow, and those two have bonded strongly. She's the only one Willow wasn't terrified of.Suki is the last one, I swear! She was a little 8 month old darling the pet store was having a hard time selling, so were getting ready to send her back! While transitioning the first four, Boris was my hold out. EVERYTHING I gave him was poison, in his mind . Worst little drama queen I've seen yet . Twisting to get away, gagging, retching- he did all of it! Then one day- he ate it! Every single piece on the plate ! Those four haven't looked back. The next two for transitioning were the fosters. Until we adopted them, I could only supplement with raw. So in order not to cause unnecessary tummy upsets(mixing kibble and raw too closely can cause some problems- more about that later), I'd give them raw one day, and kibble on a different day. So, by the time we adopted, they had no problem with 100% raw diet. With Willow, I brought her home, and she flatly refused to eat the totally ferret kibble, so I went back to the pet store and got her a small bag of the crap they were feeding them there, and brought it home. I tried to give her some, but she just upset the dish. So- I tried her with some chicken breast. She ate it up! Hasn't had kibble since . Emily came to us as a raw fed ferret, so no issues there. Suki was another kibble head, but caging her in the daytime with Miss Emily showed her how to eat raw. And now- we've added Mr. Frodo, who essentially switched himself second day he was here That's me and mine in a nutshell The reason I started looking a raw feeding was something my vet said to me. I was, at the time, giving them small pieces of fruit for treats. She told me that was VERY bad for them, and in fact, some studies have started to link early feeding of sugars with insulinoma later in life. So- I started thinking. Kibbles are full of carbs. It's all those grains/veg/fruits in them. Those are converted to sugars by the body. To me then, sugar= potential insulinoma. So, I started checking out various diets. I had no idea what an obligate carnivore was at the time. I found out! Not much wonder there was soooo much poop in the box! I may as well have been tossing my money in there. They can't process anything that's not meat based! So I feed meat Their fur is softer, their energy levels are amazing- no mad rushes then crashing. Even my three year old's teeth are amazing. No plaque whatsoever Healing is faster, and if they do get ill, they have more reserves to rely on than when they were just kibble fed! And there is a LOT LESS POOP!!!! Yay! I'm looking forward to helping your little ones get on a much healthier diet, and having fun while we're at it We have now adopted 4 more ferrets from the local rescue, bringing our numbers back up to 9 again 7m old Cody as well as a bonded trio of 2yr old males, Judge, Indie, and Odin(also adrenal). All are also now fully raw fed
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Post by Sherry on Feb 28, 2013 9:15:20 GMT -5
Since you are mainly going for commercial raw, with something like some necks/chunks later on let's focus on that for now Which brand of CR are you going to be starting with? Whichever brand, chicken is the one most accepted by ferrets to begin with.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2013 19:35:41 GMT -5
hello! This is probably a great time to start the mentoring because ive hit a bit of a wall. Ive been feeding raw for a few weeks now, starting out with soup mixed with ground kibble ( which only a few of them would eat),and then after about a hundred scruff n stuffs even my most stubborn would FINALLY eat plain raw. So currently all five are eating a chunky-ish soup every day, as well as freeze dried raw soup every day, in chicken, rabbit, turkey, and pheasant. Ive tried other meats but they wont consistently eat them, so im going to wait until they are all 100 percent on raw before I try to convince them to eat anything new.
So I have two issues that are keeping me from progressing.
1) Jasper and Annabelle still wont go to the dish automatically. Felix, Sebastian, and Lucy will all eat fromthe dishes when I put them down ( as long as they are one of the four meats I mentioned). But EVERY SINGLE MEALTIME I have to spoonfeed Jasper and Annabelle first, and then they will stuff their faces in the dish. Because of this, I have to keep something other than raw in the cage while im at work and at night because im worried that the two will not eat if im not there to feed them at first. I occasionally still have to scruff n stuff Jasper, but hardly ever. The good news is the food I leave in the cage these days is air dried raw (ziwipeak lamb and venison formulas, which they ALL love) instead of kibble. I know the chicory in it is not great, but its better than kibble and its more of an emergency backup than a real meal. Any suggestions on how I can get the stubborn two to eat raw on their own, every single time?
2) I cant get past the chunky soup stage. The commercial raw I use has tiny chunks of bone and meat that are still there once I mix it with a bit of water, but theres no real next step stage. Its either chunky soup, or just chunks. I havent really been able to get any of them to eat solid chunks yet. I tossed some chicken necks in the mix the other day, but they just got stashed, and not eaten. Should I maybe just buy some meat from the supermarket, cut off tiny slivers and add those to the commercial soup?
I tried a LOT of different CR brands before I settled on a winner. They absolutely hated Natures Variety ( which is terrible because its the only ferret appropriate raw I can get from work, and therefore get a discount). I think they hated it because it doesnt even really resemble meat. Its kind of grey and totally uniform. Plus it has the 5 percent fruits and vegetables, which I dont think thrills them. They didnt like Natural Instincts either. The two they really like are Red Dog Blue Kat, and 3P Naturals, both companies from Vancouver. 3P naturals is the one ive settled on, because they have more variety, are a better price, AND they have a just meat, bones, and organs line. I also use Feline Naturals freeze dried raw, which is just chicken, lamb, and mussels.
SO a typical meal plan looks like this:
breakfast: chicken and lamb freeze dried raw soup Day food: Lamb or Venison ziwipeak air dried dinner: 400 gram package of meat, bones, and organs (mixed into chunky soup)rotating between rabbit, chicken, turkey, and pheasant.
oh, and they get lamb bone dust mixed into the soup for extra calcium, until they eat solid bones.
I recorded their weights today as well:
Sebastian (7) - 2 pounds, 15 oz. Im REALLY excited about this because in the fall he had dropped down to about 1 pound 12 oz because of his IBD and I now realize, his adrenal disease. Annabelle (3) - 1 pound, 12 oz Jasper (2)- 2 pounds, 12 oz Felix (2)- 3 pounds, 2 oz Lucy (1) - 1 pound, 15 oz.
thanks for your help, and let me know what else I should update!
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Post by Sherry on Feb 28, 2013 19:52:37 GMT -5
Alright! First step is to get them eating on their own. Sit with them on the floor with the dish. Keep your hand on their backs, both to keep them from running as well as to reassure them. Use a small plate and Spoon feed. Keep slowly moving the spoon toward the dish while they are licking at it, until the spoon is resting on the dish. This will likely take a while. Make sure to keep the spoon full. Once they will lick from the spoon resting on the plate, start taking the spoon away so they automatically take a lick it two from the dish. If they keep licking at the dish great. Otherwise just keep repeating moving the spoon away so they lick at the dish again. For those eating on their own sliver some bits of meat no larger than the crescent of your pinkie nail. Just put two or three mixed in with their grind. As they accept that start increasing the slivers til half and half. Then start slightly increasing the size. Again just 2 or 3, and increase the larger bits over time.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2013 10:32:10 GMT -5
okay, im going to buy some grocery store meat today so I can add some slivers to their soup. I would use my commercial raw, but it doesnt really sliver so much.
question: is Green Lipped Mussel a similar source of calcium as bones are? The freeze dried my guys love AND the air dried they love has mussel instead of bone, and im wondering if this is okay for them. They still get bone every night in their raw meal, and ive been adding bone dust here and there, but I want to make sure they are getting enough.
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Post by Sherry on Mar 1, 2013 13:42:40 GMT -5
If the shells are included then yes. But there is enough bone in what you are feeding even without that. Just keep an eye on stools that you aren't giving too MUCH
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2013 22:27:56 GMT -5
so I have had a huge setback this week. Saturday morning I woke up to find my fridge and freezer had gone warm overnight. Terrible! I guess it was lucky that it was ferret raw shopping day, so only two packages went to waste. The problem is that we cant get a guy out to fix/replace until tomorrow (Tuesday). I still have evo kibble left but I dont want to lose all my progress!! so I stocked up on some freeze dried, and am trying to get by on that. Its better than nothing, but its not ideal. It congeals fairly fast so the ferrets stop eating it way before they stop eating raw food thats sitting out. Plus Annabelle isnt a big fan, so I worry about how much she is eating ( she is so tiny, she cant really miss any meals!) Poor old Sebastisn keeps staring at me with his sad little eyes wondering why he doesnt get his yummy raw meat anymore!! So basically, no progress this week until the fridge is fixed and I can buy some more raw. I hope I dont lose any momentum though.
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Post by Sherry on Mar 5, 2013 1:13:30 GMT -5
Okay, this is definitely a set back for you! Are you close enough to a store to pick up small pkg of meat every couple of days? It should last that long until your fridge/freezer is replaced. If not the freeze dried would be beat for now. You will likely have to hand feed if it's not being as well accepted.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2013 0:56:12 GMT -5
Tomorrow i think i'll buy a half pound of ground chicken or turkey and make a soup out of that, and some eggshells.. If that works i'll do it every day til i get a new fridge (looking like Saturday :S) i will still give them the freeze dried once a day so they get organ meat
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Post by Sherry on Mar 6, 2013 9:47:25 GMT -5
That will work, no problem And a short term with no organs is no problem at all. It takes a while for dietary deficiencies to become a problem.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2013 0:55:04 GMT -5
Mini update: bought a bag of NV chicken Bites in a trial size on my way home tonight. Its a bit more than they eat in one meal but thats okay, im just happy I get to feed them balanced raw today!!All five went nuts over it, so I was very happy. I will weigh them again tomorrow and try to get some good aerial photos.
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Post by Sherry on Mar 7, 2013 9:30:12 GMT -5
Excellent! Until you can get a fridge, just do what you can.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2013 13:41:14 GMT -5
okay! back on track! freezer is working temporarily and new fridge is on the way. Today I am going to go to the store that sells 3P and stock up on packages. The ones they always stock are 250 gram packages of meat, organs, bones, psyillium husk, egg yolk, and salmon oil. I will also be special ordering some 800 gram packages of JUST meat, bones, and organs, which I like better, but I have to wait for them to come in. 800 grams will nicely split into three meals at the amount they seem to be eating in one sitting, and will be cheaper. A sample of my weeks menu is: Sunday - breakfast = 250 gram frozen chicken food in cage for the day = split up chunks of Primal freeze dried beef and salmon dinner = 250 gram frozen chicken food in cage at night = ziwipeak air dried venison Monday - breakfast = 250 gram frozen rabbit day food = chunks of primal freeze dried turkey dinner = 250 gram frozen rabbit night food = ziwipeak air dried lamb Tuesday- breakfast = 250 gram frozen turkey day food = freeze dried beef and salmon dinner = 250 gram frozen turkey night food = ziwipeak venison Wednesday - breakfast = 250 gram frozen pheasant day food = Primal chicken and salmon dinner = 250 gram frozen pheasant night food = ziwipeak lamb And thats pretty much all they like to eat, so I will be cycling through those, sometimes switching up the order. Its hard for me to tell right now how much frozen they can actually eat, because like I said before Annabelle and Jasper still like to be spoon fed before they eat from the bowl, so I dont know if they are actually going to the raw after I leave the room. PLUS it will be different when its not soup, because they they will be getting more food and less water ,and it will last longer sitting out. Thursday night I brought home a trial size of natures variety (300 grams) and the next morning there was still a bunch in one of the bowls (maybe a quarter of the package). But yesterday i split it up, half a package at 6 when I got home from work, which they ate all of, and then the other half before bed, and when I woke up it was all eaten. SO Its a bit of trial and error right now. Here are their pics and weight! Sebastian: 3 pounds 1 ounce - gaining weight fast, but thats apparently a side effect of the melatonin. im pretty happy he is a fat little boy right now! His energy levels are pretty low, but he gets a little active if you instigate playtime. He still trots around sniffing and doing his thing, but doesnt go nuts like the younger ones do. I think he is doing better than he was pre-treatment, so thats great. And his IBD seems to be clearing up without more antibiotics! I guess a combo of adrenal treatment, reishi, and raw is helping out. i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z456/brianna_a/IMG_0303.jpgAnnabelle - 1 pound, 9 ounces - Annabelle seems to be doing well, shes a bit troublesome with eating and I worry she isnt eating enough, BUT she is the smallest, so it makes sense she wouldnt eat as much. She seems to be sleeping a bit more lately, but is still SUPER active when she is awake. I'd like to get her checked out soon though, its been a year since her last checkup. i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z456/brianna_a/IMG_0307.jpgLucy - 1 pound, 15 ounces = Lucy is perfect, as always! i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z456/brianna_a/IMG_0306.jpgJasper - 2 pounds 13 ounces. Jasper is doing great! He was the most finicky eater, but he seems to be gung ho about raw now! Happy boy, lots of energy and love. i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z456/brianna_a/IMG_0305.jpgFelix - 3 pounds 1 ounce. Felix is happy and healthy, but is maybe starting to mount others? Its hard to tell what is just pinning his brother down during playtime and what is actually mounting behaviour. He also needs a checkup pretty soon. I dont THINK he is adrenal because there is no other symptoms, but I want to be sure. i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z456/brianna_a/IMG_0304.jpg
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Post by Sherry on Mar 9, 2013 14:21:48 GMT -5
As for weight loss, when in the process of a raw switch all ferrets are going to drop some weight at first. What's happening is that their bodies are shedding the fat from the kibble before packing on the muscle they'll get on raw. Also, it's spring so most will have decreased appetites and weight loss from that. As long as activity remains good, just keep an eye that they aren't getting TOO thin. As in hip bones becoming prominent. Sleeping more at first is also common during a diet switch. I'm assuming(but don't know for sure) that their bodies are so busy learning how to transfer all that protein to usable form that they simply need more rest. They will also be detoxing from the kibble as well. If you want to get them eating a bit more at a setting, cut the meals down to two a day. It won't hurt them Just make sure to leave some extra in the cage. With Felix, it does look like he has some thinning across the shoulders. Also check toes, belly, and throat. With one of ours he looked perfectly normal from the back and when you picked him up. However, his throat was badly thinning. It wasn't even noticeable until I was checking him over one day. As for mounting behaviour here is a link that has some videos to show it: holisticferret60.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=adrenal&action=display&thread=2023Also read through the posts. There is some good info on how to tell the difference.
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