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Post by katt on Mar 20, 2013 1:13:51 GMT -5
Just a bump and check in.
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Post by katt on Mar 23, 2013 3:11:44 GMT -5
Any progress?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2013 11:21:50 GMT -5
Well yes, upon reading your posts I realized how we have lacked on letting you know there actual daily diet intake. SO our EXTREME apologies. Here is what I think you want..
The foods we have on hand generally always are - Chicken ( whole and all parts ), Duck ( whole ), Any Beef cut..I'll be getting tounge soon we have lung also, Any Pork cut, lamb chunks, Cornish Hen, Buffalo ( ground ), Organs are - Beef liver / kidney. Pork liver / kidney. ANd assorted Rabbit organs literally all assorted in a bag so no idea what is what but theres aot of variety in the bag. Also we have pork and chicken hearts that I add small amounts to EVERY meal.
So the menu... We do NOT have like a 'set' menu... I've never really been a fan of those since well myself and my gf do not eat the same food every week on the same days so I like variety and spontaneity.
Supplements are as follows and small, small portions get added to every meal <100mg. Organic E.V.O.O or Organic anchovie / sardine oil or Cod / Salmon oil
Taurine - Reishi - Pancreatin - Pumpkin - and a pinch of Probiotics - Calcium ( bone meal )This one doesn't get added every meal in case of constipation.
As for the meal itself, I take usually a piece or two of BONE IN poultry or pork and mix with a muscle group meat of any species listed above. this would be there ' daily ' meal and is fed ~2-3 times a day depending on there appetite. Sahara obviously is the one whom eats the bones...steve won't touch them hence why I add calcium.
1-2 a week I will do the SAME meal as mentioned above but add in organ meats. These have been any combination of the above, only issue is I CANNOT find more organs...all I have for 'variety' is the assorted rabbit organs, otherwise I have ALOT of liver and kidney. I do believe nethier of the fuzz butts like the organ meats considering those 1-2 meals are the SLOWEST to get eaten throughout the week...sometimes gotta have them lick off my finger to entice them.
So not sure if that helped with the meals... the portion sizes for the above mentioned meats are ~8oz and up...the way I look at it is we monitor there intake / outake so much that we can adjust as needed.
As for the consistency's of food... I know my gf. posted that we have a sort of 'yogurt' consistency now with chunks and ground meat mixed in. Steve is still VERY selective on what pieces he eats and which he doesn't...I haven't found a meat he likes more than the other so that's a no go... I've tried putting treat on a piece of meat or on his food and he just licks all the treat off and leaves whatever else behind. The bright side is occasionally on meals where theres chunks I HAVE seen him chewing and eating the chunks...it's just far and few and rare.
SO the food texture is pudding like with chunks in it, the chunks range from small tiny slivers to quarter sized chunks for sahara. We've tried ground buffalo and steve doesn't seem to care for it at all ( surprise surprise... )
To answer your previous question as well... Sahara is willingly taking chunks of heart ( pork and chicken ) and most any other meats and bones, she is NOT taking pieces of organ...I'm guessing the smell / taste is very strong.
Were still working very hard at any and all positive reinforcement for steve when we see him eating chunks, he just seems to know what were after and just enjoys being stubborn....because wow, he's stubborn...
Thank you SOOO much, we both apologize for being spotty online...were down to one laptop and well the excuses could be endless...life is life and we're trying ~ Really hope both your babies are doing great and that your job search and schooling is going good!
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Post by katt on Mar 23, 2013 11:58:59 GMT -5
Job search? lol Not me. And I'm not really in school either. I'm taking one class for fun right now (ASL) but that's it. I AM starting Medical School in August though. Anyways onto business. About the menu. You HAVE to create a menu to graduate from the mentoring program. The menu is designed to teach you how to create a well balanced meal plan and to make sure that they are on a balanced diet. The menu does not have to be set in stone, far from it - variety is good. However it DOES function to provide you with a framework to follow to ensure that the diet is properly balanced. An improperly balanced raw diet is far more dangerous than any kibble diet. It is VITAL that the diet be properly balanced and varied so that they are getting the nutrients they need; otherwise they will eventually end up with serious vitamin deficiencies. You CAN feed a mixed meal every meal rather than having separate organ and heart meals but here are some considerations. With multiple ferrets if you are feeding a mixed meal you do not know who is eating what. They will self regulate to some degree, but not always. And with a ferret as picky and stubborn as Steve do you want to take that chance? What you risk with a mixed meal is that say Sahara LOVES chicken hearts, but Steve is either neutral or doesn't care for them. Sahara is going to eat most of the hearts herself, and Steve is not going to be getting the heart meat that he needs in his diet because a) Sahara will be eating it all and b) he'll be more inclined to pick around it anyways. This is a risk you are taking with a mixed meal feeding schedule, and it's one I don't typically recommend. Especially for newer switches as they tend to be more selective and picky than ferrets who have been on raw for about year or more. Another factor to consider with a mixed meal diet is that IF you are going to do this you NEED to make sure you are getting the proper balance. This is going to mean always weighing their food to ensure that every meal consists of 10% organ and 10% heart. In regards to the organs, you have plenty of variety. More than most. You have 3 different protein sources for organ meats, and 2+ types of organs. If you come across more in your exploring definitely grab it - variety is great. But don't stress about what you have. You already have more organ variety than most people have access to. Some people can't even find Kidney. I would count the rabbit organs as "other" since you don't know how much of what is in there. So when making their meals remember the rule is 10% organ, at least half of which should be liver and half other organs. So you could do half liver, half kidney, or half liver half rabbit organ mix. Organs are very strongly flavored and tend to take the longest for them to start eating freely. For Steve and the ground bison, that isn't too surprising. Bison and beef tend to be stronger flavored meats. I would suggest trying to hand feed him some ground chicken or turkey. If he won't take it plain, mix a little warm water into it until it is a bit more mushy and try again. If he will take it as a Scruff n Stuff, I would continue to hand feed him the ground meat until he is full. Here is a thread with a description and video of proper Scruff n Stuff technique. www.holisticferret60.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=switch&action=display&thread=4340For Steve, he IS stubborn but he WILL get there. It will just take him longer. As long as you are persistent and patient, he will get there. I do think that hand feeding him more will help to speed things along. Hand feed him chunks covered in soup. And by hand feed I don't mean let him climb down and stash it. Unless it stresses him out, continue to hold him in your lap and re-offer the soupie-covered chunks until he eats them. Typically with the stubborn ones they need to be hand fed for a while until they decide okay I suppose it's food. The more you can get him to eat chunks by hand feeding, the faster his progress will be. Don't force feed him of course, you don't want to create stress and negative associations with raw food, but do push him a bit too. Right now what I would like for you to do, in addition to more hand feeding, is to start decreasing the amount of water that you put in the soup. Do it slowly. Every few meals, add a few tablespoons less. SLOW and STEADY. When you get to a point where Steve seems reluctant stop for a few extra meals at that point, and then continue on again with the slow decrease of water. Continuing to hand feed will help with this. As a plus, it also helps with bonding and will allow him to get a little extra special love and attention from mom and dad.
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Post by katt on Mar 23, 2013 12:02:24 GMT -5
Oh and for your menu. IF you DO want to continue with the mixed meal feedings, then your menu will need to reflect that and should show for example:
Monday am: 0.5oz chicken liver, 0.5oz rabbit organs, 1 oz heart, 8oz chicken wing pm: 0.5oz beef liver, 0.5oz pork kidney, 1 oz ground bison (not saying I expect them to eat 10oz each meal! Just an example of the amount of information you would need to include)
Another note for Steve. Since he is being reluctant and is taking longer to switch off of soup, I would suggest brushing his teeth once a week or so until he is eating more chunks.
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Post by katt on Mar 25, 2013 11:47:21 GMT -5
bump
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2013 14:32:29 GMT -5
we are making the menu today. its just a little harder than we thought it would be haha. As for brushing Steve's teeth would i use just a regular tooth brush? and this is just to remove the plaque right ? ... As for the menu if at the moment we cant weight anything do you want a rough outline of what we feed and when we feed? until we can get everything exact for you?
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Post by katt on Mar 25, 2013 14:57:00 GMT -5
Yes yes and yes. You can buy a kitchen scale at most grocery stores for not too much. The tooth brushing is to remove plaque, soup doesn't do much to clean teeth and he will be at a higher risk for tooth decay until he gets onto whole chunks and bones (or at Least whole chunks) unless his teeth get brushed. I would post a thread on the main board to get more info on tooth brushing. I have never had to brush my boys' teeth since they both eat bones. I know there are finger brushes specifically for pets that you may have an easier time with (they are usually rubbery too so he might gnaw on your finger, which would in a way be helpful lol) and they make flavored toothpastes. And yes, please post a rough starting menu. The initial menu isn't meant to be perfect and polished necessarily, we will work on it together.
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Post by katt on Mar 27, 2013 3:18:54 GMT -5
Any updates?
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Post by katt on Mar 28, 2013 5:11:09 GMT -5
Just checking in for updates.
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Post by katt on Mar 29, 2013 12:03:30 GMT -5
Updates?
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Post by katt on Apr 2, 2013 15:23:08 GMT -5
Updates?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2013 18:03:48 GMT -5
Let me begin with apologizing for us disappearing, we have been having a rough couple of weeks. So to start off we are feeding them a general "meat" everyday weather it be chicken , cornish hen, or rabbit. They are also getting supplements to make sure we are giving them the nutrients the they require. they are eating heart everyday in their meals as well. along with other organs/muscles. Steve and Sahara are both eating the organs and such in the soup but not in chunks. Steve ABSOLUTELY refuses to eat and chunks of any kind. When we feed them to him he will gag and when he does take them he will give you the " now what ?" look or he just runs off and drops it somewhere. Sahara on the other hand eats chunks no problem. When we are making food she will come right under my feet and beg me for a piece. She then will take it away and eat it then come back for more. She will not eat the chunks of organs though. When we put it on the floor she will sniff it but she will not pick it up. But we will stay persistent with them both.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2013 14:35:48 GMT -5
SO just an update for the date. We have gotten Steve to eat meat chunks, but he will not eat them when they are not in the soup. He only eats them on his own time.
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Post by katt on Apr 3, 2013 18:05:49 GMT -5
SO just an update for the date. We have gotten Steve to eat meat chunks, but he will not eat them when they are not in the soup. He only eats them on his own time. Good. It doesn't really matter how or when he eats them, just that he eats them. What size were they? I know it has been a rough few weeks, and I Do understand but it really is important that I be kept updated. :/ An unbalanced raw diet is far more dangerous than even a crappy kibble diet. I can't be of any help to you if I don't know what is going on. You say they are getting organs and heart daily, but how much? How much muscle meat total are they eating vs heart and organ? Have you gotten a scale yet? Can you please give me the recipe that you are using to make Steve's soup. If Sahara is only getting organs from the soup, but she is eating chunks what is her diet like? Is she getting a strictly organ soup 1-2 times a week, or is she just getting some of Steve's soup in addition to her chunks? These things are very important. If she is just getting a little organ in the soup she eats with Steve in addition to her primary diet of chunks, she is NOT getting enough organs. What are you using for supplements? If their diet is balanced, they shouldn't need any supplements. If it is unbalanced, that needs to be remedied as soon as possible. What are they getting for calcium right now? How much and how often? What types of meat are they eating (chicken, beef, pork???)? Continue giving Sahara chunks. Is she munching on bones yet or just meat chunks? How big of a chunk will she eat? As long as she is eating them, I would feed her primarily chunks with minimal soup. She needs to be getting one meal of organ meat and one meal of heart meat per week minimum. Have you tried offering her organ and heart chunks yet? Keep giving Steve the chunky soup as long as he is eating the chunks. SLOWLY increase the number of chunks in the soup. The more information I have, the more I can help. Right now all I know is that Steve is eating soup and will eat some tiny (size unknown) chunks, and Sahara will eat chunks. I need more detailed information than this so I can tell you where to go next.
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