Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2013 21:21:26 GMT -5
Because some here belong to the FML, some do not. My response to a certain person's persistent belief that feeding ferrets kibble is just fine and that feeding them a natural diet is poison. The FML has a moderator that consistently denies my posts or limits me to a word count, but allows that certain person to make multiple posts and to keep bashing raw feeders. I have sent in three posts this winter which he has denied. Let's see if he denies this one too. If he does so be it. Those ferret caretakers that are genuinely interested in offering their ferrets optimum health can still come here! At the end of my post here is the post on the FML to which I am replying.
Is it any wonder that such “basic work on ferrets does not exist” (regarding genetic ability to digest carbs) when there is no actual “basic work” on a ferret’s nutrient requirements reported in scientific journals? Oh wait – Bob Church HAS done a great bit of research regarding ferret’s diet influence AND his work has been published! “Ferret Husbandry and Medicine” describes well the carnivorous needs of ferrets. Those of us who venture beyond the advertisers and listen to our ferrets already know that a scientific study isn’t really necessary.
It is not a hypothesis that a ferret lacks a cecum it is fact. The cecum’s function is not to digest or breakdown carbs and sugars, its function is to break down cellulose (plant fibers). Humans HAVE a cecum AND an appendix. Dogs and cats have a cecum, even wolves do, as do birds and some reptiles – but our furry friends the ferrets, do NOT. The human appendix was formerly though to have no purpose but has recently discovered as a beneficial bacterial repository and tissue back up for urinary tract troubles. Herbivores have HUGE cecums because they need to ingest massive amounts of plant matter in order to thrive. Since ferrets evolved as obligate carnivores – nature eliminated unnecessary parts.
So the original dog-like wolf ate the dredges and wastes produced by human society, stuck close to an easy meal ticket and developed into the domestic dog. Science now shows a gene that allows the domestic canine to produce amylase from their pancreas at 28 times what the wolf does (proving the wolf produces this amylase too). The jury is still out whether this increase happened BEFORE or AFTER human association. Dogs suffer from similar cancers as humans.... which we then study to locate medicines for humans. When did cancer become a benefit? Humans CAN digest raw meat too - but we benefit more from it when it is cooked!
Look at the diet of ferrets and their common health ailments; this science has simply vindicated raw feeding proponents. Ferrets on kibble diets inevitably suffer from insulinoma (cancer from the pancreas having to consistently produce huge amounts of enzymes to digest foods the ferret was not designed to eat). IBS is a common too; bowels irritated by stretching to pass massive amounts of abrasive indigestible grains and tough fibers day after day. No mouse morsel, raw meaty bones or organ meat meal EVER creates the huge deposits that kibble forces through a ferret’s system. Effects of kibble on dentition is well documented by Bob Church.
The ferret pancreas produces digestive enzymes to quickly break down animal tissue; if called upon to create enzymes to break down massive amounts of carbs and sugars – the cells go haywire and tumors result.
Scientists may have found a gene expressed by domestic dogs allowing them to gain some benefit from carbs and that same gene IS found within the Wolf (but isn’t as active); this does NOT equate to feeding carnivores a carb infused, grain filled, plant based diet that is just all hunky dory!
Last I looked the carnivore teeth of domestic dogs, cats and ferrets have NOT evolved into carb grinding molars.
Subject: got the answer that this basic work on ferrets does not exist
Yesterday I wrote:
>I was actually trying to find a very specific thing for someone:
>if anyone has done studies that specifically measure things like
>glucose and insulin levels in blood and urine in ferrets in response
>to dietary intake challenges, and that data appears to be lacking in
>what I can find, yet such data would be essential to the foundation
>of multiple hypotheses and arguments (sometimes intrinsically
>self-contradictory arguments on some popular websites as my find
>noticed) in relation to some pancreatic and intestinal health
>statements being widely made.
The answer -- having contacted some veterinary researchers who work
on improving diagnosis and care of ferrets with insulinoma -- is that
these measurements have NOT been done on ferrets to see how much blood
glucose and insulin levels or glucose in urine (preferably looking at
all three) change in response to challenges from eating animal protein,
plant protein, sugar, or complex carbohydrates. The data just does
not exist for ferrets. The work has not been done even though this is
essential foundation information. What exists are suppositions from
other mammals.
So, basically, the news is how LITTLE is actually known on this score
for ferrets!
Remember, that with dogs -- far better known companion animals -- a
recent surprise was found in that in multiple ways they have the
genetics to far better digest carbohydrates and fats than wolves have:
www.sciencemeetsfood.org/?p=869
QUOTES
The researchers identified 36 genomic regions that differentiated
dogs and wolves. Ten of these play roles in starch digestion and fat
metabolism, such as amylase and maltase, two key starch breakdown
enzymes.
www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature11837.html
Erik Axelsson was also interviewed on NPR's Morning Edition
yesterday, you can listen to the full story here:
<http://www.npr.org/templates/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=3&prgDate=01-24-2013>
END QUOTES
<http://www.livescience.com/26513-starchy-human-diet-domesticated-dogs.html>
<http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/347706/description/Starchy_diet_may_have_transformed_wolves_to_dogs>
<http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature11837.html>
Oh, and on this topic: if bringing up the cecum/caecum (and therefore
the appendix) in such discussions it would be good for people to recall
that some suppositions about digestion -- while they can AT TIMES
affect degree -- are lodged in the state of knowledge that existed back
in the 19th and early 20th centuries and has altered, so really should
stop being repeated as if they were absolutes.
Since this link below was written:
www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=what-is-the-function-of-t
it also was found that organ acts to serve as a shelter for needed
bacteria in the intestinal microbiome to protect part of their
population during bad diarrhea, but just as people without one still
digest a varied diet well due to having the right genetics and the
right intestinal microbes so can other species. A lot has been learned
in 100 years plus.
Again: here is what to take home:
******the news is how LITTLE is actually known on this score for
ferrets!******
What hypothesizing means is that the hypothesis might be right or might
not. With so little known about ferrets on this score, even such basics
as not having those challenge studies done, it is essential the recall
that what things are discussed for ferrets and diet are just
hypotheses, and that even for dogs what HAD been thought to be known
because of wolves and other wild cousins turns out to actually not be
at all the complete picture. So, it is useful to know the ancestral
diet, but also useful to keep an open mind in case a surprise comes up
for you.
Is it any wonder that such “basic work on ferrets does not exist” (regarding genetic ability to digest carbs) when there is no actual “basic work” on a ferret’s nutrient requirements reported in scientific journals? Oh wait – Bob Church HAS done a great bit of research regarding ferret’s diet influence AND his work has been published! “Ferret Husbandry and Medicine” describes well the carnivorous needs of ferrets. Those of us who venture beyond the advertisers and listen to our ferrets already know that a scientific study isn’t really necessary.
It is not a hypothesis that a ferret lacks a cecum it is fact. The cecum’s function is not to digest or breakdown carbs and sugars, its function is to break down cellulose (plant fibers). Humans HAVE a cecum AND an appendix. Dogs and cats have a cecum, even wolves do, as do birds and some reptiles – but our furry friends the ferrets, do NOT. The human appendix was formerly though to have no purpose but has recently discovered as a beneficial bacterial repository and tissue back up for urinary tract troubles. Herbivores have HUGE cecums because they need to ingest massive amounts of plant matter in order to thrive. Since ferrets evolved as obligate carnivores – nature eliminated unnecessary parts.
So the original dog-like wolf ate the dredges and wastes produced by human society, stuck close to an easy meal ticket and developed into the domestic dog. Science now shows a gene that allows the domestic canine to produce amylase from their pancreas at 28 times what the wolf does (proving the wolf produces this amylase too). The jury is still out whether this increase happened BEFORE or AFTER human association. Dogs suffer from similar cancers as humans.... which we then study to locate medicines for humans. When did cancer become a benefit? Humans CAN digest raw meat too - but we benefit more from it when it is cooked!
Look at the diet of ferrets and their common health ailments; this science has simply vindicated raw feeding proponents. Ferrets on kibble diets inevitably suffer from insulinoma (cancer from the pancreas having to consistently produce huge amounts of enzymes to digest foods the ferret was not designed to eat). IBS is a common too; bowels irritated by stretching to pass massive amounts of abrasive indigestible grains and tough fibers day after day. No mouse morsel, raw meaty bones or organ meat meal EVER creates the huge deposits that kibble forces through a ferret’s system. Effects of kibble on dentition is well documented by Bob Church.
The ferret pancreas produces digestive enzymes to quickly break down animal tissue; if called upon to create enzymes to break down massive amounts of carbs and sugars – the cells go haywire and tumors result.
Scientists may have found a gene expressed by domestic dogs allowing them to gain some benefit from carbs and that same gene IS found within the Wolf (but isn’t as active); this does NOT equate to feeding carnivores a carb infused, grain filled, plant based diet that is just all hunky dory!
Last I looked the carnivore teeth of domestic dogs, cats and ferrets have NOT evolved into carb grinding molars.
Subject: got the answer that this basic work on ferrets does not exist
Yesterday I wrote:
>I was actually trying to find a very specific thing for someone:
>if anyone has done studies that specifically measure things like
>glucose and insulin levels in blood and urine in ferrets in response
>to dietary intake challenges, and that data appears to be lacking in
>what I can find, yet such data would be essential to the foundation
>of multiple hypotheses and arguments (sometimes intrinsically
>self-contradictory arguments on some popular websites as my find
>noticed) in relation to some pancreatic and intestinal health
>statements being widely made.
The answer -- having contacted some veterinary researchers who work
on improving diagnosis and care of ferrets with insulinoma -- is that
these measurements have NOT been done on ferrets to see how much blood
glucose and insulin levels or glucose in urine (preferably looking at
all three) change in response to challenges from eating animal protein,
plant protein, sugar, or complex carbohydrates. The data just does
not exist for ferrets. The work has not been done even though this is
essential foundation information. What exists are suppositions from
other mammals.
So, basically, the news is how LITTLE is actually known on this score
for ferrets!
Remember, that with dogs -- far better known companion animals -- a
recent surprise was found in that in multiple ways they have the
genetics to far better digest carbohydrates and fats than wolves have:
www.sciencemeetsfood.org/?p=869
QUOTES
The researchers identified 36 genomic regions that differentiated
dogs and wolves. Ten of these play roles in starch digestion and fat
metabolism, such as amylase and maltase, two key starch breakdown
enzymes.
www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature11837.html
Erik Axelsson was also interviewed on NPR's Morning Edition
yesterday, you can listen to the full story here:
<http://www.npr.org/templates/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=3&prgDate=01-24-2013>
END QUOTES
<http://www.livescience.com/26513-starchy-human-diet-domesticated-dogs.html>
<http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/347706/description/Starchy_diet_may_have_transformed_wolves_to_dogs>
<http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature11837.html>
Oh, and on this topic: if bringing up the cecum/caecum (and therefore
the appendix) in such discussions it would be good for people to recall
that some suppositions about digestion -- while they can AT TIMES
affect degree -- are lodged in the state of knowledge that existed back
in the 19th and early 20th centuries and has altered, so really should
stop being repeated as if they were absolutes.
Since this link below was written:
www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=what-is-the-function-of-t
it also was found that organ acts to serve as a shelter for needed
bacteria in the intestinal microbiome to protect part of their
population during bad diarrhea, but just as people without one still
digest a varied diet well due to having the right genetics and the
right intestinal microbes so can other species. A lot has been learned
in 100 years plus.
Again: here is what to take home:
******the news is how LITTLE is actually known on this score for
ferrets!******
What hypothesizing means is that the hypothesis might be right or might
not. With so little known about ferrets on this score, even such basics
as not having those challenge studies done, it is essential the recall
that what things are discussed for ferrets and diet are just
hypotheses, and that even for dogs what HAD been thought to be known
because of wolves and other wild cousins turns out to actually not be
at all the complete picture. So, it is useful to know the ancestral
diet, but also useful to keep an open mind in case a surprise comes up
for you.
Kim great write up!!!