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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2013 14:07:17 GMT -5
i meant yesterday and today*
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Post by Sherry on Jan 14, 2013 16:46:59 GMT -5
Jim, I do understand where you are coming from with the frustration with IBD. My boy Boris passed at the age of four from uncontrolled IBD because he would not eat the foods/supplements he needed to control it. You will not find anything that will work 100%. What you need to work and aim for is finding what keeps him at the best point HE can be. This is most likely going to include a rotation of foods and supplements, and giving medications and supplements to suppress a flair up. Once he was stabilized with prednisolone, what I found to help a lot was to keep a daily diary. In this diary I wrote what he ate and how it affected him. I also included things that may have stressed him, such as a change in routine or a fight with a cage mate, etc. That way I was better able to pinpoint what triggered his flare ups the most. For you since z/d has brought it under control it's time to start introducing different proteins, but very slowly mixing them in with the z/d, and then record what his stools are like. Boris wound up only being able to eat lamb, with up to 30% either venison or lamb. I prepped his meals ahead of time, portioning separately and mixing in his pancreatic enzymes and freezing. I would take a meal out and thaw in the fridge to feed 12 hrs later. Just before feeding I mixed in both reishi mushroom(anti-inflammatory) and probiotics. Day 1 was straight commercial lamb. Day 2 lamb and about 10% of elk, day 3 up to 30% lamb. Day 4 we'd start rotating elk back out again, then start with the venison. On this rotation his stools were as good as I'd ever seen them and he gained weight, increased activity, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2013 15:26:18 GMT -5
He was great with the diet Z/D but now he looks like he is not in the mood,(not like he used to be,for instance today he went out for 2 hours)the previous week he was 3 to 4 hours out,i know when something is going wrong with my ferret i can see it,and my vet has told me not to try new things because he doesn't wanna stress him.Could also ibd have caused a stomach ulcer?what else can i do for my ferret?his stools look most of the time normal sometimes they have a little mucous or they are seedy.I have also noticed that whenever he is eating normal he seems to be less energetic,whenever he eats less he is more energetic,what this could be,most of the times he has mediocre-good apettite.Moreover,i wanted to ask you wich of the two brands you prefer for probiotics The one is From Mercola.com(30$ 90 grams 14 different trains of bacteria,6 reviews on amazon)and the other from Animal essentials(300 grams with digestyve enzymes, Lactobacillus and Bacillus,20$,64 reviews on amazon.)which one to choose?do you think that i need to add any supplement such as vitamin b12 or vitamin b complex?thank you everyone for your answers and your time!
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Post by Sherry on Jan 15, 2013 19:09:14 GMT -5
Yes, IBD can cause ulcers. The biggest problem with z/d is that it should only be used as a temporary solution. It doesn't give enough nutrition over the long term.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2013 20:27:40 GMT -5
Have you tried introducing some raw that's not chicken? Z/D is high in carbohydrates, which could very easily be affecting your ferret's energy level. As you're probably already aware, the carbs cause eratic blod sugar levels, which can lead to the development of insulinoma. Since your ferret was previously eating a raw diet, you're used to seeing the higher energy levels for raw-fed ferrets. Owners typically see a notable increase in energy level when their ferrets are started on raw. Switching to the Z/D may have helped the IBD, but it's not an idea diet for ferrets, so your ferret will not feel as he did when eating raw as long as the IBD is under control.
Another thing to remember is that, once IBD starts up, the ferret's digestion typically never recovers 100% - you will see loose and seedy stools periodically.
For probiotis I recommend the mercola with a separate porcine-based digestive enzyme (Mercola had a digestive enzyme as well.
I would also start reintroducing the raw meat/organ/bone diet as well - just sty away from poultry. If you can find lamb, which seems to be common in many Greek dishes, it would be a good pace to start. Lamb seems to be one of the meats that IBD ferrets do well on.
I also recommend avoiding the vitamins. Liver is a great source for many vitamins, including the B vitamins. I recommend giving a small bite of liver (not from poultry) daily. Some people feed organ meats in greater portions less frequently, but the organ meats fed in larger quantities can be harder to digest. Start with a very small amount. Again, the raw diets result in more energy because ferrest are not designed to derive energy fron carbs - they need fats and proteins to maintain their high metabolisms.
-jennifer
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2013 12:23:10 GMT -5
Thank you jennifer!i think i will try to add on his diet rabbit and lamp,as for the vitamins,i have read in articles that vitamin b complex or vitamin b12 can benefit the pets with ibd,because not all nutrients are absorbed when the ferret has ibd,anyway thank you again,i am going to order the probiotics and digestive enzymes today.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2013 22:51:48 GMT -5
Let's see where we get with the probios and the enzymes. I recommend one type of new meat at a time. If the rabbit works well, then you can start to add lamb to the diet. If you start introducing too many things at once, it can upset the digestive system. I know you were feeding raw meat before. Were you feeding a mix of organ meats, muscle meat and bone? All three of these foods are required , and they need to be fed in cerain percentages to provide a balanced diet. If you need information on this, we have some information posted in the diet/raw feeding section of the forum. We also have volunteers that to mentor people (it's free - we do this because we all love to help ferrets ). If you sign up for the mentoring program, you will be assigned a mentor who will help you every day. The mentor will help you build a good feeding schedule for you ferret. You can still post and ask questions of the entire forum as well. Most people enjoy the program because it's nice to have the same person follow your daily progress. Also, quite a few people have been feeding raw diet to their ferrets for many years. We have quite a bit of experience managing IBD in ferrets -and of course, we share tips and help each other out. Be sure to let us know how the probios and enzymes are going...The other thing I want to mention is that for tthese supplements (probios and enzymes), the doing for a ferret would be half the amount that would be given to a cat. Start with an even smaller amount and gradually increase to the correct amount for a ferret. We look forward to hearing how things are going. -jennifer
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2013 10:57:06 GMT -5
ok, i will start with small amounts(especially with the digestive enzymes) and we will se they will be problably here in 10 days.I think i wanna start to add rabbit to the diet after i have used the probiotics,yes i was feeding raw meat chicken hearts chicken liver,breast,wings but now he CANNOT digest bones,i remember i gave him 2 months ago a bone and he didn't even digest it so i am not going to try it again.I am also going to buy vitamin b12 supplement(i read on wikipedia that it helps patients with allergies and helps in the absorption of nutrients.i also wanted to share in the forum something that i found on the internet about adrenal gland disease natural remedy(i would use it in combination with dislorelin or lupron) here it is: miamiferret.org/riley.htm Also i wanted to say that my ferret is sleeping more than usual these 4 days he is out for play only2 hours a day,i don't know im gonna call my vet(everything seemed fine with the ZD what dafuq happened now?)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2013 17:16:12 GMT -5
i called my vet and he told me that he doesn't know what to do,he told me to add more vitamins to the diet(since he cannot absorb the nutrients well)and i told him about the probiotics and he told me that they won't hurt him.we will see results in a few days(fingers crossed).don't forget to read about the adrenal gland natural remedy it is really interesting!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 10:00:35 GMT -5
The enzymes will help faster than the probios. The reason for this is that it takes TIME for the probrios to embed in the gut lining and populate the mucosa.
Another interesting tidbit.... there is not much evidence that probios last over time....the known value in probios is that they colonize the intestine temporarily until the regular strains of bacteria repopulate.
These are reasons why there's question about probios. People feed them and don't see improvement - they expect to see quick results.
Regarding undigested bone.... you will see bits of bone in a raw-fed ferrets stools. this is normal. If you are seeing large chunks of bone, your ferret may not be chewing dues to a bad tooth - or perhaps stress (see feeding dens threads.) Ferrets don't really chew like people, they just shear the bone into small pieces. If the bone thing bothers you, you need to use human grade bone meal instead of bone. Note feeding bone will result in serious nutritional deficiencies and disease. Also, bone will help to firm up loose stools!
Are your ferret's poops still really bad? Has he had the IBD long term? If you ferret is just "not normal", but "not too bad" with occasional "bad Poops", then this may be as good as it gets with the IBD. If the problem is really severe, and the prednisolone is not helping enough, there's another drug called imuran that may help.
Regarding the natural remedy for adrenal - there's no evidence that the remedy will hep - it's simply a concoction of supplements that are supposed to help with tumors - there's nothing specific about adrenal disease associated with that remedy. In contrast, melatonin is a natural remedy that does offer some benefits but will not prevent/cure the disease. We have some info in the melatonin in our medical section on this site.
Also, if you want to give vitamins, I would get the enzymes going first. Then add a cat multi-vitamin a couple weeks later. You may want to add some minerals as well. all this needs to be done carefullly since you can overdo it with vitamin/mineral supplements. The enzymes put on the food (moist food like raw) in advance will probably improve absorption immediately. Enzymes added to a dry meal upon feeding may help, but not as much.
-jennifer
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2013 14:07:19 GMT -5
My ferret's poop are still a bit seedy with little mucous,3 days ago i noticed a green stool which means that the food wasn't broken all the way down.Now he is sleeping more than usual,he is still doing war dance and hiding our shoes but he is sleeping more than usual(21-22 hours a day )he is only 3 years and 8 months old....i don't why this happened so early!!!he was on a raw diet,i wasn't even feeding him kibble,we were on a raw diet for 2 years.i am waiting now to see results i have ordered:Probiotics,Digestive enzymes,vitamin b-complex supplement,slippery elm,terramin california cley)hope they will help.Also he doesn't eat his food dry,he eats the kibble now like a soup with a lot of water,so it will not be a problem to add the supplements there.I have also added olive oil these days,i have read that it might help with ibd,i was also giving him cod liver oil but it doesn't seem to help.what did you say about the probios before,that they only help for a little while,for instance if i use the probios for several months then they will be inefficient?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2013 0:03:58 GMT -5
Regarding the use of probiotics.... STudies suggest that probiotics help to populate the gut after the use of antibiotics or some kind of disturbance to the digestive system that wipes out a lot of bacteria. Over time, you would think that the probiotics that were introduced by the supplements would have a strong presence in the system. However, studies have demonstrated that, over time, the native bacteria become dominant. So its beleived by quite a few holistic practioners that probiotics populate the gut opportunistically. When the native bacteria are more sparse than normal, the bacteria from supplements have a better chance to establish themselves. But this colonization seems to be temporary in nature, and eventually, the native bacteria repopulate and presumably complete with and replace quite a bit iof the bacteria introduced by the supplements. As the gut repopulates with native bacteria, the beneficial effect of the probiotics will probably become less significant since the supplement will be competing with native strains.
Fish body oil (such as Salmon oil) has a better balance of nutrients for ferrets, so your ferret may do better on salmon oil.
Be very careful with the B vitamins - it's easy to overdo synthetic vitamins in small animals, espcially if a complete, balanced vitamin mix is not given. I recommend working with your vet with the vitamins.
Most feeret do mellow a bit by the age of 3 - 4, but a sudden change in behavior is always a concern.
-jennifer
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2013 8:13:31 GMT -5
oh i understand.i have read on wikipedia that most of the b vitamins do not cause toxicity(the only b vitamins that cause toxicity are niacin,b6 and folic acid)since he has problem with absorbing all the nutrients,i don't think that we will have episodes of toxicity,i am going to ask my vet about the dosage.do you think that i should use the probios in conjuction with the digestive enzymes?can i use spirulina from vitamin shoppe,it has some important vitamins and antioxidants. here's the link www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp?id=VS-2677#.UP2J0x2Ubsc
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2013 9:40:22 GMT -5
Regarding Spirulina...I would be a bit concerned about doubling up on vitamins and super foods such as spirulina.
Spirulina has some properties that may conflict with your current plan. 1. It contains quite a few B vitamins. 2. it facilitates the uptake of B vitamins 3. I boosts the immune system, which potentially : a. counteracts the immune-suppressive effects of prednisolone b. may make the IBD worse 4. Digestive upset and diarrhea are known side effects in some individuals. 5. Spirulina also contains a LOT of vitamin A. Liver contains a lot of vitamin A as well. The code liver oil contains a lot of vitamin A. One of the reasons why the salmon oil/fish body oil is considered to be a better supplement for ferretsis because it has less vitamin A, and a typical ferret diet will already be high in vitamin A (liver, eggs) Ferrets are small, and they have very fast metabolisms. This makes them susceptible to nutritional issues and metabolic imbalances. You need to be careful with supplementation. I do provide supplements. However, I go to a holistic vet (in addition to a traditional vet) for advice on diet and supplements. 6. any of the seaweeds/algae are potentially contaminated with toxins/heavy metals, so you need to find a "clean source".
Another thing - the slippery elm bark coat the gut and potentially blocks some nutrient absorption. So., the slippery elm bark needs to be used carefully as well. It's a temporary treatment that can help to sooth/heal an irritated gut.
There are many options out there, but these supplements need to be used sparingly and are best given under the supervision of a vet that understands how these supplements can interact with everything else.
In short, I would not recommend using spirulina on an IBD ferret.
-jennifer
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2013 15:06:59 GMT -5
pfff,i don't know what to do guys,my ferret is not feeling really well and i don't know what to do,i will call my vet again tommorow he is currently on a hypoallergenic diet and on a low dose of prednisolone (1/4 of the pill)In the beggining of the treatment he was great just a bit bony(an he still is).Could this be an adverse reaction to the hypoallergenic diet(strating having an allergy again) or a bacterial overgrowth?cause i don't give him antibiotics,do i have to increase the dose of prednisolone(i don't want to overdo it with this drug cause i have read that it has many side effects!what can i do?Meanwhile,i am waiting for approval from greek organization of drug and medicine for the probitocs and digestive enymes because the vitamin shoppe doesn't ship to greece without approval regardless of the item.so the holistic medication is not possible at this moment.what else can i do for him???what to tell to my vet.?
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