New puppy, general Qs and raw feeding

[Deleted]

Long time, no see...after a crazy finals session and an even crazier holiday, I'm back home, back in school, and we have a puppy now. For all of the other critters I've had the pleasure of sharing my life with, I've never actually had a dog. My husband and I had been discussing getting one sometime in the next couple years and my sister recently helped a friend rescue this girl and couldn't keep her, so we puppy-sat as a trial run and aren't giving her back .

We're not sure on breed or age, she came from an Indian reservation where the dogs run wild, aren't fixed, and used as target practice..my sister's friend runs out there every year to catch as many as she can to find responsible homes for the puppies that aren't too feral. Based on her webbed toes, coloration, and other traits, I think she has a lot of Catahoula leopard dog in her, and she's about 3-4 months old. Sweet personality, definitely smart and eager to please but she's a puppy so I'm dealing with a small attention span and even smaller bladder .

This is Pearl (we may change her name, undecided on that):









I've been feeding the cats and ferrets raw for a few years now, so I definitely want to do the same for Pearl. From the research I've done, it looks like feeding her will be about the same (just more of it and larger chunks), although there is a lot of conflicting information about whether or not dogs need some vegetable matter. Can those on here with raw fed dogs chime in on their experience with added vegetables vs. none?

Also, are there tried and true methods for switching a puppy? It seems like with her mouthing everything, it should be easy..but other than wanting to chew on hard old ferret jerky, she doesn't seem to be interested in it...she avoids her kibble if I mix any in, and she also doesn't like soft foods, so mixing it in with something soft won't work. Right now I have the raw right next to the kibble, and have been encouraging her to try it, but the most I've gotten is her to bring me chunks me like they're fetch toys.

Lastly, are there any tips for integrating her with the ferrets? She's really good around the cats, but she gets a little crazy when she sees the ferrets and chickens. Not attack crazy, but playful puppy crazy...but even that could be dangerous, so for right now I keep everyone separated or her on a short leash. If they get in her line of sight and she's just watchful, I let her continue looking, but as soon as she starts ramping up, I remove her from the room/yard. I have her crate trained since we're also in the process of potty-training her and can't let her have run of the house all night, so I don't want to use the crate as time-outs and have her associate that with being in trouble.

Thanks for all the help!

*Forgot to add, we've only had her for about a week. Also, I'm trying to find consensus on a good spaying age? I've seen everything from 8 weeks to 3 months after the dog's first heat recommended, and research to back up going in early as well as waiting. I know how terrible early alterations in ferrets can be, but don't know if there's a similar problem in dogs?

[Sherry]

Oh, she is so precious! Congrats on the newest furkid

[Deleted]

I don't know much about raw feeding but as for the spaying I've heard that small dogs it can be done a early as 8 weeks though isn't highly recommended. For older dogs they usually mature slower and it's best to get them spayed closer to six months (closest to their first estrus).

My dogs were spayed/neutered at 8 months old, my female had already had her first heat and they both did wonderful. There's nothing wrong with waiting, though the longer you wait to more sexually mature they become. We were not going to get my male neutered but when he started "going through puberty" (so to speak) and began marking everything in the house, humping my female and becoming slightly more territorial and defensive we decided it would be best to nip and snip. However, just keep in mind if you do decide to wait after they have fully matured spaying/neutering doesn't solve the problems that come with estrogen/testosterone. If it becomes a learned behavior then you have to work with them and train them to help correct the behavior even if you do snip them.

Hope that helps and congrats on the new addition, she's adorable!

[Deleted]

Look at those PAWS! She is gonna be HUGE! What a cutie!

I can't help on the raw stance, I've never had a dog with a picky appetite (including tin cans ) just picky digestion.

~Kelli

[Deleted]

ok, guess its my turn. I personally don't feed the dogs any different than the ferrets or cats. the only thing I have noticed is that you may have to adjust the bone. just watch the poop. if its white, cut back on bone. if its loose, try adding more bone. as for the switch, we just got a new puppy last night. her name is Princess and she is a 11 month old Chiwawa/Dachshund/Shitzu mix. we switched her right over to raw. just pick up the kibble. it wont take her long to realize its more yummy than kibble. it took Princess all of 5 min. to decide raw meat was yummy. she was on iams kibble. I refuse to use kibble in my home. you may need to start with chicken wings for the bone portion until the jaws get stronger. she may also have some stinky farts or loose bowels until her belly gets used to the different meats. we started with stinky farts today. ;D feel free to PM me with questions.

[Deleted]

Looks like to me, she looks like she'll be around a medium-large sized dog. As for the neutering, it is best to get any dog neutered (Unless you plan to breed or show them) before their first heat period. When their first heat period does depend on each dog; some can have their first period at 4 months, some at 6 months. Generally, you'd want your dog neutered/spayed before 8-9 months of age. I have a friend of mine who adopted an 8 year old mutt and he hadn't been neutered until they got him. He got neutered at 8 years of age and he seemed fine. He hasn't shown any typical 'male behavior' since. I neutered my Doberman at 5-6 months. I've seen people neuter/spay their puppies before they're even 4 months of age and they were fine too.

As for her not being interested in her food, has she eaten any of it at all? She may not be interested but I found playing with your pup with food is helpful. For example, if she enjoys chasing things, maybe toss the treat somewhere for her to chase and then eat it. My first adopted dog was fed that way at first and then he learned to just eat it on his own. I have another friend of mine who raw feeds but only occasionally. You don't have to feed your dog raw meat; at least not that I have heard of. I personally see more people just feed dogs kibble than raw foods. I don't recommend giving chicken bones to puppies, dogs in general. Small dogs maybe they could get away with it (I never had small dogs; I mostly owned large breeds) but from my knowledge and experience, chicken bones are far too small and are more vulnerable for a dog to choke on. I've seen it happen a few times and it isn't a scene you want to deal with.

I can't guarantee that your dog and ferret will ever get along. You can never tell. My friend owns 3 ferrets and her dogs and ferrets never got along... And they lived in the same house for over 4 years. Since she is a puppy, she will attempt to play 'roughly' with the ferret so I'd advise to provide full supervision when they are together. I think it is best for puppies to be socialized with many different places, animals, people, noises, touch, etc. in order to shape a calm dog in their adulthood. Just supervise the two for now and if she starts acting up, correct her behavior. This could be a simple touch on her, noise, anything to distract her from carrying on that behavior. Generally, if you want to "discipline" your dog and you can't give them a time out, just give them no more play time by simply taking a toy away or not giving attention when they are doing a behavior that you do not want (Such as jumping on you).

[Deleted]

Dr. Pitcarins Compleye Guide to Natural Healtn for Cats and Dogs is a good book on raw feeding. Has meal plans and everything.

Also, dogs should be spayed anytime after 6 months of age. If you spay them before their first heat cycle it reduces their chances of mammary cancer by 65%. They can go into heat by 7-8 months.

[Deleted]

Spaying /neutering is not as simple or benign as most people are led to believe. The age and size of the dog are major considerations. In a study of 1444 female golden retrievers, it was found that the earlier the spay, the greater the incidence of cruciate ligament injuries (up to 5x ). Cruciate ligament injuries are the #1 payout by pet insurance companies. The study concluded that a golden retriever sized dog should not be spayed before 14mths of age. Another study on longevity in rotties found that the females greatly outlived the males, but only if they had been spayed after 4years of age. Ferrets are not the only animals that suffer adversely from pediatric neutering. The hormones are there for a reason. I am not saying do not fix your animal, but it is nice to have all the facts. These are just 2 studies.

[Deleted]

I can't figure out how to multi-quote, but that's alright.

Sherry, she really is precious! My sister brought her down on New Year's Day, so in the 9 days we've had her I've already taught her that "Bedtime" means going in the crate for the night (with no whining now!), have her consistently going to the bathroom in one spot of the yard (except when she still makes a mess in the house [img src="http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h352/JW_2012/Emoticons/.png" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h352/JW_2012/Emoticons/.png"].png[/IMG] ), and she listens to "sit", "down", and "drop it" a good portion of the time.

Thanks Brttnay03...I think if we train her to have good habits all along, a little bit later spay won't be an issue, and she's a pretty easy puppy to teach so far...we'll see if she goes through terrible teens .

Kelli, when my sister approached us about taking the puppy, her size was the first thing my husband asked about...we live in a neighborhood full of little yappy dogs, and he outright said "Not if she's going to be a small dog!" We're thinking she'll be medium sized, maybe in the 35-50lb range, but not knowing her parents, it's really hard to say.

Thank you Sheila, your new puppy sounds adorable! I really don't want kibble around at all, but she's not really recognizing the raw as food yet and I don't want her going hungry. My sister had her on a vegetarian kibble because her other dog has allergies and that's all that doesn't seem to cause him problems (I've tried talking her into trying raw, but with two 100lb dogs she's pretty afraid of the expense even though I've told her I can teach her how to be cheaper about it), so Pearl was pretty skinny and I immediately picked up some grain-free kibble. She eats the kibble and ferret jerky, and she will mouth and play with bone-in raw but hasn't really taken the next step to eating it, and really doesn't seem to like anything mushy. But we haven't had her long, so I'm hoping with enough play and mouthing that she'll get the point soon.

Thanks Ramseysmom...there's so much conflicting information about spay/neuter ages and knowing what I do about ferrets, I'm trying really hard to get all my research in order before making a decision. I don't really care if the puppy becomes friends with the ferrets, but I definitely want her to be trained well enough to not play with or attack them. Same with the chickens...I think quiet attentiveness or curiosity will be ok, but unless she turns out to be protective of them, I'd actually rather she learn to ignore them as much as possible. I don't need my other pets unnecessarily stressed out or put in danger. She seems like with some consistent work she'll be fine since it's pretty easy to get her attention back on me, but I worry about those quick movements and big paws.

Noahsark, thank you for the book recommendation, I'll definitely check it out!

Lasher, I'd seen the study on rotties, and read a few sites that referenced bone cancers, ligament issues, and incontinence as potential issues in early spays, as well as lighter, easier to break bones because it basically throws them hormonally into menopause before they can even mature. I also read that this causes the leg bones to continue lengthening because they lack the hormonal cue for the growth plates to stop growing, increasing the risk of damage and that's part of why the ligaments go...the bones aren't sitting at the correct angles from the excess growth. But there's also a lot of info on higher instances of mammary cancer and uterine infections in late spays (of course, the infections come prior to the spaying), so I'm trying to make a list of pros and cons. At a minimum, I'll wait til after she's 6 months old, but I'm kind of leaning towards after her first heat depending on how much more info I can dig up on either side of the argument.

[Thérèse]

Congrats on the new puppy. I too have a new dog (well puppy, who just turned 5mo today). I am also wondering a bit about when to desex. My golden rule has never been to desex early than 6mo and years ago no vet here worth his salt would desex before that age. Unfortunately that no longer applies and so when I was looking for a new dog even if it was only a pup of 8wks age I always asked about desexing because scarily it is now possible that they may have been desexed.

When I took Jelly (my new dog, who I have had since the 16th Dec) in for vavaccinations the vet suggested that doing her at 5mo when she came back in for her vax booster was an option. I am not considering that. I am however considering waiting til she is 9mo. My vet and I had discussions about feeding her raw (he was not for it which surprised me because he has never had an issue with the ferrets being fed raw). In our discussion he really wanted me to feed her processed food til she was at least 9mo as she would still be maturing. I wanted her on raw for exactly the same reason. He doesn't like that I am going raw but he accepts that's what I am doing. Anyway this made me think that 9mo would probably be a better age to desex than 6mo. Still deciding.

This leads to my question. Jelly is essentially my 3rd dog. All females. My first dog I got when I was 11yo and so desexing was really my parents decision, she was done at 6mo. My second dog I got from the RSPCA at 6mo and they had just done her. So this is the first time I am really making this decision. It seems silly but while I know how to tell if a female ferret is in heat (and I only have male ferrets) I have no idea how to tell with a female dog. Can someone enlighten me. I don't want to risk accidental pups because I don't know she's in heat but I do want to maybe wait those extra few months if she will be mature by then, ie. let her do her growing with the hormones nature gave her.

Anyway congrats on the new pup, have fun with her

[Heather]

This might be more information than you need but
www.dogbreedinfo.com/breedingheat.htm
I used to have an information sheet about the reasons why and why not to spay and alter. It wasn't biased (many are) it was just a statistical sheet filled with various reasons both positive and negative. I will see if I can find it.
In all my years of dogs, I've only had one female and she was altered at a year. That breed was mature at that time. Some breeds (I have a wolfhound) are not mature until almost 3 years, though are sexually mature around a year to 18 months. To allow for full and proper structural growth they should be left intact until they're at least 2, better 3. For years the dogs I had were show dogs, so were left intact. I no longer show but my present dog is intact. He's not difficult and is well mannered
ciao

[Deleted]

Puppy is adorable!!! Here is some good info:

leerburg.com/feedingarawdiet.htm

[Deleted]

If you want your puppy and ferrets to be safe whenever they're in the same room, it's best to just socialize your puppy to them. Just let her know that these little furry guys are just like cats, they're not toys and you will not allow her to do anything that will harm them. Socializing is key; getting her to know the ferrets, correcting any unwanted behavior, and so on. I am in any form, not a professional dog trainer but I have worked and owned multiple dogs starting from yorkies to great danes and pit bulls.

[Deleted]

There are a couple of great videos on youtube about raw feeding dogs.
From the research I've done, leafy greens or tripe is an excellent additive to the diet. The idea is wild dogs will eat the stomach content of their herbivorous prey.
When I eventually get a dog I will be including tripe in it's raw diet. Check out butchers for good deals since a dog will eat a lot more then your ferrets!

edit to add
This was my fav video

[Sherry]

Dogster is another forum that has a good raw feeding section.