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Post by joclyn on Aug 4, 2011 13:17:39 GMT -5
what do you feed them?
what do you do to avoid issues like parasites and nasty organisms they can carry?
how much natural lighting do they need? i'd set up in the basement which gets some very indirect sunlight for most of the day with an hour (around/right after noon) that is pretty bright. should they be set up near the windows or does it not matter?
how soon, after birth, can you tell the sex?
how long will you let the females breed before retiring them?
do you give them live to the ferrets? or do you dispense with them first? if so, how's that? with a gadget or do you do it?
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Post by katt on Aug 4, 2011 13:35:20 GMT -5
I never had an issue with wheels and breeding moms, I took them out because I got tired of knocking them over at night, dang squeaking and rattling. And mice prefer it cooler, they probably won't breed well if at all in really warm temps. My production slows down in the summer. I have watched a mom ignore her starving babies, and then bash their heads in with the wheel as they tried to reach her to nurse. ;( It was really sad. Thanks Inside it is So, once you get a system going, are you able to have a constant supply of mostly adult mice? Where do you keep the babies that will eventually become "feeders"? A separate tank? Do I separate male & female? Definitely a separate tank. I recommend a larger tank, or a large sterlite for the babies to grow in. My "new" set up that I am about to rearrange to (it will be almsot identical to my old set up lol) will be to have glass 10 gallons for the breeding groups, and a few (1-2) large sterlites (the ones I currently use for breeding) for the babies to grow in. Yes you want to separate males and females. I put them all together and if any fight, I remove the aggressive ones and feed them off. Then as balls start dropping I slowly remove them. I am pretty terrible at sexing young mice. haha This way as well the ferrets get mice of all ages as you go bc they are eating the young males, but the females are being allowed to grow up. Be warned though you might have an accidental litter or two this way, but I have found it to not be a real issue. If it is you can just move mom to a breeder tank, or feed the babies off as pinkies for a tasty treat. OR leave them in there. Mice are colony breeders and actually raise babies better in groups.
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Post by ttfr on Aug 4, 2011 14:37:35 GMT -5
Hey,
I have Bred rats, and Mice. So far...I per fer rats. For one, They are bigger and taker shorter time to mature. One Mouse sized rat is only 6-8 weeks old vs the 2-3 months for a normal mouse. I think the time line is right!
Also..Rats are friendlier and don't smell as much. They also aren't as territorial or mentally unstable (talk about baby eating in females. ;D) as mice. They do cost a bit more and require more work but produce larger quality baby's than mice and take shorter time.
When I bred rats in containers, I used one large, long container. You cut a square from the top to fit with mesh. You can also ether get hanging bottles, they tend to climb these, or poke a nozzle sized hole in the container and hang the bottle up from the outside. If you give them enough enrichment, They won't chew the cage.
As for food: Rat Wise- Rat blocks as a stable, Oats, Corn (for teeth. Babies love it. ), Whole grain cereals, and than I always look at foods before throwing it away. Stale bread, cereal, dried fruits (as treats for playing with the baby's), Dog Food, and pasta.
Money Wise: Start up is always going to be the most. $10-20- One large Container $5-6- A small roll of mesh $2-?- Water Bottles. The ones that hang on the inside are always more. I run a ferret foster program so I get bottles all the time. It's one of the pros's of taking in foster ferrets. Some stuff isn't ferret worthy but rats love so it doesn't become wasted.
Monthly- $4-?- Bedding: Depends on what kind of bedding you use. I use aspen but I am going to switch to something that will last longer. Petco has a 40lb bag of pellets or you can go to tractor and supply. $0-?- Food costs pretty cheaply but you have to buy 2x as much. $2-10 for rat blocks. One or two box's feeds for 2-3 months for 2 rats and 11 warnings. $3-10 For Oats. ( Tractor and supply or tack shops) Lasts forever..I used 2 cups in a mix. $3-10 For Corn. Lasts Forever. I don't mix too much. $3-10 For a Rat Mix. I mix in Rat pellets.
Free: Cereals, Breads, Dried fruits, Pasta. I go through the cab nets for old stuff or talk to Friend about needing old foods.
Basically...I got everything free from work, the barn, roomier, etc except the rat pellets. It's lasted 2 months and has still 1/2 a container left.
Enrichment: Paper rolls for the young. Apple Branch's with leaves. Grass. Hay. A bit of play time with tunnels for the adults if you want to treat the breeders like pets. It makes everyone happy when they don't know they will be culled. ^.^
If you know horse Friends, try to get the bale twine from their hay. You can braid it into a rope and make rope swings, or levels to climb across. I use a wire cage so I just zip tie the ends to the cage and let them chew the rope for a while.
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Post by katt on Aug 4, 2011 14:50:02 GMT -5
what do you feed them?I feed a homemade mix that I find they do much better on than store bought food, is cheaper, and lasts longer. What it is varies a bit by batch. A lot of oatmeal (raw, non-instant), barley, wheat, grains, wild bird seed mix, etc. I will post the recipe Candice gave me if I can find it. I can't think of everything I use off the top of my head. I have a long list somewhere that I wrote up but I lost it. It's all in my head when I go shopping, I just can't think of it atm. haha I also feed table scraps and fresh foods. Scrambled eggs are good for pregnant and nursing mothers as they need the extra protein. Fresh greens and veggies, the occasional fruit, baby food, or canned pumpkin. And if they are lucky the occasional insect as well. what do you do to avoid issues like parasites and nasty organisms they can carry?Nothing. Ferret immune systems are built to handle those things for one. I have never had a problem. Also, I think you will find that with domestic mice you don't see the same incidence of parasites that you would in wild mice. What you DO see a lot of is mycoplamsa which is a bacteria that affects the lungs and is common in pet store ferrets. When you are buying mice, hold them up to your ear and listen for a slight clicking sound. I thought at first this was just a vocalization but it turns out that it is mycoplasma - which IS contagious. And once your colony has it it can be hard to get rid of. I had to pretty much start over with the exception of a few mice that seemed to be immune as they showed zero symptoms even after heavy exposure to sick mice. how much natural lighting do they need? i'd set up in the basement which gets some very indirect sunlight for most of the day with an hour (around/right after noon) that is pretty bright. should they be set up near the windows or does it not matter?Careful about his as putting them in direct sunlight can (and will) heat up the cages. That being said, they will be healthier and breed better on a natural light cycle. But it isn't necessarily "necessary." I had my groups in a bathroom for a long time and had no issues. Many breeders keep theirs in solid colored racks with little or no lighting and they still breed. Now that we have moved and I have the space, my mice are in a closet. The closet door is kept open however and the window blinds are left up, so they get natural lighting. As long as they are not in direct sunlight (sun streaming in heating the cages) then natural lighting is better. I personally wouldn't bother with any artificial lighting unless they are in a room that is always dark. Then some fluroescent lights, or even just a lamp in the room, put on a timer would certainly not hurt. how soon, after birth, can you tell the sex?For me - when the balls drop! ;D I am terrible at sexing young. It just takes practice but I honestly don't bother. If they cause problems (fighting) I cull them), when their balls drop I cull them. I will post some links to really helpful sites though that will give you some better information than that! how long will you let the females breed before retiring them? I retire them when they get tired. A lot of it depends on how big their litters are, and whether or not they get a break (and how long of a break) between litters. The females I breed back to back get retired earlier than the females that get breaks. If they eat a litter, they get fed off. If they stop having babies or their litters become really small, the babies are born small and weak, etc, I retire them. Also, you can just sense when they start to get worn out of mothering. I can't really describe it, but once you see it I think you will recognize it quite easily. My females have one of 3 fates. I either keep them a pets/companions for other females (usually young females I pick out to be breeders but need to grow up a little, I put them in with retired breeders for companionship), I rehome them, or if they turn mean (start eating babies, attacking other mice, etc) I feed them off. I don't rehome instable or stressed mice. I have successfully rehomed several breeders and they are living happy lives as beloved pets now. I have kept one particular female for over a year - she is my Big Momma and she will probably stay with me for life as she is a great little girl who gets along with everyone. I have had a few more retired breeders that I kept into retirement, who later lost it and went nuts - so they got fed off. Unfortunately mice are not bred for health and pet store stock mice are often mentally instable. do you give them live to the ferrets? or do you dispense with them first? if so, how's that? with a gadget or do you do it?I feed live, but my boys are both skilled hunters. I also stand by to dispatch botched kills (which I have had to do twice) so the mice never suffer. I would not feed live to a poor hunter. There are simple methods to setting up a CO2 tank for people who are uncomfortable feeding live. You use dry ice. I will see if I can find this one site that had a good how-to for a great set up. Personally, I feel that feeding live is much more humane than CO2 as the death is instant. With CO2 the animal passes out due to lack of oxygen, and then suffocates to death. I would not feed anything but mice live though personally. Anything else like rats, hamsters, gerbils, etc I would use CO2.
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Post by katt on Aug 4, 2011 14:53:36 GMT -5
I have Bred rats, and Mice. So far...I per fer rats. For one, They are bigger and taker shorter time to mature. One Mouse sized rat is only 6-8 weeks old vs the 2-3 months for a normal mouse. I think the time line is right! This is somewhat incorrect. They might be the same size as a mouse by that age, but their bones are not done developing and thus they are not a complete source of calcium.
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Post by katt on Aug 4, 2011 15:17:43 GMT -5
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Post by katt on Aug 4, 2011 15:20:38 GMT -5
Ok here is the diet. Done by Candice (candiceboggs). Mine is very similar, but I rotate through a lot of the ingredients so they don't necessarily get it all at one time.
The Natural Mouse Diet
A combination of the Shunamite diet for rats and a from nature-sourced ingredient diet I have carefully formulated specifically for mice.
ALL ORGANIC INGREDIENTS*
*Exception of Nutritional Yeast Flakes (Brewer's Yeast, supplement, optional)
3 Cups Thick Rolled Oats
3 Cups Rolled Barley
1/2 Cup Brown/Wild Rice
1/2 Cup Pumpkin Seeds
1 Cup Wheat Kernels (Red or whatever you can find, wheat berries or groats are good too for variety)
1/2 Cup Millet
1/2 Cup Golden Flax Seeds (Golden are more nutritious.)
1/4 Cup Brewer's Yeast (Nutritional Supplement)
1/4 Cup Amaranth (old-world grain)
1/4 Cup Buckwheat (old-world grain)
1/4 Cup Quinoa (old world grain)
1/4 Raw Cashew Pieces (or other inexpensive organic nuts, crushed)
Most of these ingredients can be purchased from bulk bins at natural food stores such as Whole Foods Market, or other local stores. Whenever possible obtain organic ingredients. I have not yet found a source of organic Brewer's Yeast (Nutritional Yeast Flakes) but this is an optional supplement.
It is imperative that in addition to a mix diet mice receive about 1 Tbsp. per mouse, or less (if they do not eat that much within a half hour) of fresh fruits and/or vegetables per day. Do not use spinach.
Vegetables: Broccoli, kale, cauliflower, tomatoes, cucumbers, squash, zucchini, and the like are wonderful. Carrots should only be fed as a VERY rare treat as they are extremely high in sugar. Raw potato is okay but all skin should be completely removed (peeled) and all eyes as it is highly poisonous. Beans and any other legume (lentils, peas, peanuts) should NEVER be fed as they are poisonous unless cooked. Dandelion greens (if not treated with pesticides) are a mouse favorite.
Fruits: Bananas should be fed just as rarely as carrots due to the same sugar factor. Organic strawberries are best because of high amounts of pesticides in non-organic strawberries. Apples are a favorite of my mice, as are grapes, and any melons.
Citrus fruits such as oranges, lemon, lime, grapefruit, etc. should NOT be fed.
Protein: Pregnant and lactating females require more protein, as do young mice. For adult mice a treat of 1-2 live crickets per mouse each week is a wonderful supplement and they enjoy hunting them. Mealworms are not as nutritious and very fattening, but are a good treat if fed exceedingly rarely.
Hard and soft-boiled organic egg also make a wonderful source of protein and a great treat for our mousey friends. Dried bread (free of spices and preferably soy) and shredded wheat cereal are great fun and low-fat treats for overweight mice.
The key with any diet is that a mix is for picking at (with the exception of an overeater, who receives anywhere from 1 tsp to 1 Tbsp per day), and isn't nutritionally complete without fresh foods on the side.
I choose to feed a from-nature diet because every single "complete" lab block out there contains soy (which has been shown to cause tumors in rats and mice), and all store-bought lab blocks (instead of special order) contain alfalfa meal, something our rodents receive no nutrition from whatsoever. Not to mention the grainery floor sweepings, hulls, shells, and corn.
Candice
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Post by ttfr on Aug 4, 2011 16:17:17 GMT -5
Today at 2:37pm, TTFR wrote:<TABLE class=quote cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%"> <TBODY> <TR> <TD width="100%"> I have Bred rats, and Mice. So far...I per fer rats. For one, They are bigger and taker shorter time to mature. One Mouse sized rat is only 6-8 weeks old vs the 2-3 months for a normal mouse. I think the time line is right!
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> This is somewhat incorrect. They might be the same size as a mouse by that age, but their bones are not done developing and thus they are not a complete source of calcium. I forgot about that! But at the same time...When you have 11 weasels. A bigger prey item keeps the cost down.
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Post by joclyn on Aug 5, 2011 1:16:23 GMT -5
anyone have info about raising guinea pigs? if that isn't too difficult, i'd really like to do that cuz everyone absolutely adores gp...
thanks for all the links, katt! and the diet info (and thanks to candice, too, lol)!
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Post by katt on Aug 5, 2011 1:32:47 GMT -5
Yeah rats are nice. But they are illegal to own here and I like them too much to kill them. I want one as a pet. I buy them frozen for my snake and the boys get some on occasion but they are expensive. Joclyn GP's are pretty easy to breed, though they are not the most productive animal. If I remember correctly they are similar to hamsters in that they only have a few litters in their lifetimes. And their litters are much smaller than mice. About 4-8 instead of 8-15. And the babies take a while to mature. As bigger animals they eat more too and thus are more expensive to keep.my roommate bred them for a while. And btw - they stink!
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Post by joclyn on Aug 5, 2011 20:12:16 GMT -5
oh, well, if they stink, then i'll pass on raising them...got more than enuf ta deal with since i've gotz da poofygirls in da house...need to do an intro post about them...
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