Just posting my experience, because I don't buy from a petstore either when it comes to cats/dogs/small mammals, I'm a shelter girl all the way. (aside: I REALLY don't understand some of the animals that get surrendered)
My SIL bought two dogs, AKK. It's a very new 'breed' that looks like miniature huskies. One dog is 'not fit' for breeding purposes (doesn't fit the breed standard or whatever) and was required to be fixed by X date or my SIL had to pay a fine AND surrender the dog back to the breeder. The other dog is a fine example of the goals of breeding and is, by contract, only half owned by my SIL and the breeder, all care/vetting has to be approved by the breeder and all breeding rights are retained by the breeder. When my SIL and brother were transferred to Germany from the states she had to get permission to take the dogs with her. Failure to comply with all of these contract stipulations was another fine and surrender of the dog to the breeder. The dog has never been bred because, altho confirmation is spot on, temperament is lacking.
Another stipulation is that if they cannot keep the dogs for any reason they are returned to the breeder and the purchase price refunded.
IMO This is what a 'good' breeder does, the contract stipulations are there for the dogs benefit.
mustelidmusk, I'm with Laurel ... That is certainly not a back yard breeder at all!
Your friend is a SMALL breeder... and those are awesome! Same with you, Heather.
As Laurel said, BYB are the people who's interest is only in making fast cash and breed without regard for the pet's health and safety. I'm not going to continue on since Laurel already covered it perfectly. If you're worried about vet bills, and culling unhealthy lines ... you are not a BYB.
Those that breed for the betterment of the breed do not make money. All that money that was possibly created with the sale of a kit goes into its care, the vetting and the care of the jill. I know those prices seem heavy and daunting when you first look at them but I've seen what goes into making pups and kits. If you're doing it right, there is no money to spare and chances are there was not even a break even point. You have to believe that for every kit you sell you might indeed have to make space for it if it gets returned. No matter what that kit has a home with the breeder. As a breeder you are ultimately responsible for the little life you created. That is why good breeders ask you to stay in touch, send updates, photos, talk about concerns wether it's health, care or any other issues that are a with their little ones. Please, please remember anyone who buys from a breeder, your first line of communication regarding that kit you bought should be to the breeder. They really care about the wee ones they created. It's not about the money, it's never about the money. ciao
Post by silvermarble on Aug 28, 2012 11:43:30 GMT -5
On the subject of dog breeding:
I am a former supporter of conformation dog shows, but after what I have seen I can no longer support the beauty pagents. As a dog trainer, seeing breeds formerly used for great purpose devolve into brainless barbie dogs is sickening. Even worse, seeing their structure driven to extremes that make it to where dogs cannot even breathe or walk, none the less work.
I have shelter dogs, however I would not be opposed to getting a dog from a breeder that bred for temperament and health. The vast majority of the overpopulation problem is caused by backyard breeders. People who stop me on the street to ask me if I am planning to breed my APBT..who is admittedly gorgeous. They never ask about her laundry list of health problems. They never want to hear that she has to take medication three times daily. They see her and dollar signs shine in their eyes.
She is a rescue dog, so thankfully she is spayed, but she was bred directly before being dumped at the shelter. The previous 'owner' kept the puppies and dumped the mom because she had horrible demodex mange and they didn't want to pay for treatment.
Poor wee girlie. I can't believe that someone let her get that bad. Thank you for seeing beyond the disease to the beautiful girl underneath. That was a lot of work that went into her (not to mention money). I too, used to participate in the "dog show" circuit, until I became so totally disillusioned that I could no longer support this political fiasco (by the way, I didn't loose....it was because I was winning that I realized it had little to do with the dog ) I purchase my dogs from reputable breeders. I've taken up to 2 yrs researching breeds and breeders before finally settling on someone. The breeders I've chosen have always become close friends. I've learned a lot from them. I've gone the rescue route years ago but decided for the type of dogs I want and the need to have an animal that is totally dependable around the ferrets. I needed to go from scratch (puppy) and needed a very specific temperament and training. ciao ciao
Im a South Australian breeder. I am in my 3rd year of breeding and will breed my 5th & 6th litter and my 4th generation bloodlines. I know an absolute minimum of 5 generations of every single jill I breed or have bred. Knowing bloodlines and breeding for health is my strengths and I pride myself on providing the absolute best kits for my clients. I always have my kits sold a minimum 6 months before they're born. I have 14 x 2012 kits and 6 x 2013 kits sold already. I always have repeat clients and word of mouth is also good to me
My kits are sold for $250 each, this comes with the following: 10 week old kits 1kg meat 1L lactose free milk 1kg litter 4 page information pack (written by myself, with a friends assistance) 1 page Desexing contract. My clients must either chemically or surgically desex their kit between 6-12 months of age and show me the Certificate of proof of this occurring, once this has occurred they will receive $100 of their money back. My contract also States that during the life of the ferret if they cannot for whatever reason care for their ferret anymore they are to bring it back to me and I will either keep it for its remaining years or will fins it a wonderful home. You also have a 60 day money back guarantee, if you decide that within the first 60 days of being a ferrant is not for you, you bring the kit/s back and I will give your money back.
I have had a friend of mine (known her for over 5 years) tell me to my face that she promised to desex a little dew jill and she blaintly lied to my face and then bred my lines ans accused me of ruining HER lines when I took in 2 intact dew hobs (my kits grandkids) as rescues. I kenee the bloodlines of the mother but not of the father so of course they were booked for desexing the next day and were adopted by a close friend for the desexing fees.
Breeding is purely to improve the species. If you are not aware of bloodlines and imperfections of your breeding jills and hobs then you are not breeding to improve the breed you are simply a BYB. Knowing the history of your ferrets is everything. The lines I breed have never had a known adrenal ferret or anything similar and all kits have lived over the age of 7, as far as possibly known.
I kept a jill from my 2010 litter and bred her, expecting her to be as good as her mother and she was a good mother but most definately not up to my standards with mothering so her and dad were desexed and I kept a hib from that litter. (Gem; Dam. Rascal; Sire and Teddy; Son) all 3 live happily in their business with Darling (Mum & Grandma) and Nibbles (my original sin) =)
Hope this insight helps you understand why well known breeders who breed for the best reasons are good =)
I can appreciate the good breeders attempts at keeping their lineage known and healthy, and I love it that there is a contract that demands the pet back if for any reason it doesn't work out. I have that in my adoption contract and have to chip my fosters bc, unfortunately, despite vet refs, home visits, etc, some people still try and secretly dump their adopted dogs. That is where the " I hate people" thing is very easy to admit to. As for adopting the sick and seniors....they so know they are given a second chance. I found out a shelter I like to pull from down in AL had a pug w/sarcoptic mange they were going to euthanize. I contacted them and found out that they would treat and isolate for a mere 45.00 so of course we made arrangements to get him all fixed up. He came to me with a half dozen others a few weeks later and I swear that dog knew what was up. All the other dogs were running around, thrilled to have finally reached their destination, and that silly Quasi just wanted to kiss me and sit in my lap and kiss me some more. I really felt like he was tyring to tell me something.It was so touching. I was lucky enough to have a client of mine adopt him so we get to see each other all the time and he is always so lovey and sweet when we get together He is spending the week with me while his mom is away and he has been such a goof with insisting on a close and cozy place on my bed at sleep time. They all know they have been given a second chance but those less adoptables are even more aware. Which is why I hope I can still provide for rescues when I am old and less adoptable myself
Here's our rescue girl, Gracie. I think she's gorgeous. She's not conformationally correct (she has a roached back and a big knot at the end of her tail), but I think she's a fine example compared to the 'hippo dogs' that people call pit bulls today.
Our rescue pittie:
Fat hippos that people will pay a ridiculous amount of money for:
Post by Yurei Avalon on Aug 29, 2012 6:01:08 GMT -5
That's the first time I've ever seen one of those.... distorted pitties. That's disgusting. Why would anyone want that? That poor thing looks like it'd have problems walking. I'm not a fan of pitties in general, but the normal ones are very nicely put together, powerful dogs. That is just a monstrosity of misbreeding there.
Holy moley, that dog just does -not- look right. I'm used to my dog on stilts, but even I can see that can't be good for a dog's joints.
My animal of choice is different and maybe I can add some perspective too.
I'm seeing tons of similarities between what you describe in ferrets and what I see in mice. Except there is NO profit in breeding mice at all. Not even breaking even.
I've been breeding show mice for almost three years. Now, show in most terms means something entirely different than what it does in the mouse community.
Every mouse you will see in a pet store or a shelter is a milled mouse. The same issues come along with that as in other species and more. Genetic cancers, respiratory issues, tumors, neurological issues, cannibalism. All of those are hereditary(save for cannibalism, sometimes that is a survival thing).
Not only is it REALLY hard to find a health-sound mouse, it's hard to find them at all.
Not many people breed or keep mice and I often meet resentment when people hear I'm a breeder. It's a source of pride for me. I have to balance a lot, and I'm good at what I do.
The truth for my animal is that, unless it comes from a known and respected breeder, it won't live more than 5 months. In mouse shows, you are disqualified if your mouse looks unhealthy or is small in anyway. If it's mean, it gets thrown out, torn ears, kinked tails (spine deformity) all of those get you kicked out. It also hits your reputation, and that is what mouse breeders run on. We don't re-home our animals to people we don't trust. And if your reputation is bad you can't get more mice. If you can't get more mice, your lines get old and die off. Selective inbreeding only goes so far. You can't do it all by yourself.
When I started out, I got my mice from petco because I didn't know any better. I couldn't find ANYONE anywhere who bred mice. I fell in love with a little blue self who just wasn't all there. Very quickly she developed tumors and died. she was only 3 months old. Often you take mice home from pet stores and 3 out of five die because they are frail. It's called new shed shock.
I managed to find other breeders and restart with solid stock. Mice that were healthy, proven to live longer than 2 years and really sweet. These mice carried a few cancers though, but over the course of three years I managed to breed them all out. That and they've doubled in size, health and now just lay in your hand like a ragdoll.
Moral of the story I suppose is, you should keep in mind which animals you are against breeding. That and also, people will do what they want. I'm a breeder so I'm biased, but if you knew the heartache involved in breeding, I think you'd realize it's often a labor of love. The best breeders I know never make a profit since mice can't sell for more than 3$ and we often don't charge anything at all out of respect.
I think the lack of profit is what keeps mouse keepers in balance actually. That and the intimate reality of how fragile they can be, and how much work has been put into them in the last few hundred years. Not to mention that we are such a small group, word travels fast if you do something that endangers their health. Ethics is huge and covers everything from what bedding to use down to what colors their toes are.
I can't speak for other species though, but since this seems to be a general breeding thread I thought I should mention it.