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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2012 23:40:06 GMT -5
OK. So I think I'm going to try a different route with Bandit and his issues. Bandit has had his own thread on here about his many problems (coughing/hacking, vomiting, enlarged spleen, enlarged lymph nodes, strange growths on lymph nodes and organs, nose getting whiter), and we have finally been told that our last option for finding out what is wrong with him is exploratory surgery and biopsy. We have been avoiding this proposition for many reasons but Bandit isn't really getting any better lately. Actually, he is starting to cough almost regularly again (which in the past has led to vomiting episodes and an overnite ER stay) and he seems so tired all of the time. Only recently has his nose started to get whiter, but he still eats plenty, pottys regularly, and is very aware (and even plays on rare occasion). But here is my new thought - maybe if I focus on one symptom at a time and talk them out here we can get closer to an answer. So...
Does anyone else have, or have ever seen, this problem in their ferts before: Strange breathing patterns. It looks like his esophogus is undulating a few times in a row many times over with a space of about 5-10 seconds in between undulations. When this happens Bandit lifts his head, opens his mouth, emits a auditorally noticeable breath per undulation, and licks his mouth. Then he lays his head back down until the next series of undulations. This seems to make him rather tired, but it also keeps him from being able to fall asleep. This can go on for a minute or two up to an hour or so. These episodes can be rather mild to quite noticeable and loud, until it gets so bad Bandit will start coughing from the harsher undulations. These undulations are typically strong enough that I can see his abdomen move (unless this is where the undulations are originating from, which is also very possible).
I know this sounds strange but it is the best way I can describe this particular symptom.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2012 0:08:27 GMT -5
Sorry to say but it sounds like your little one is in a bad way... When they're breathing hard enough that they're moving their abdomen, they're fighting hard to breathe. If you haven't had it done already I would take your little one in for chest X-rays, he may have fluid in his chest or his disease may have spread to his lungs. Please don't leave this any longer than you have to. Take care.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2012 0:31:57 GMT -5
Thank you for your reply weezily (I like that name ). To touch on your comments - in reply to him breathing hard ---actually, these undulations don't occur when he is breathing in but more when he is breathing out I think, or rather not associated with his actual breathing. It is more of an extra breathing pattern vs his normal breathing pattern, if that makes sense As for him getting xrays --- he has had quite a few of them over the past year (his original post on here describes everything, but it is all so much I didn't repost it here) and all of them show his lungs and heart to be normal with no fluid build up. We actually have been seeing our fert vet about all of these problems over the past year and have had MANY MANY tests done and have yet to pinpoint an actual cause or disease. Don't know if this helps???
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2012 8:07:23 GMT -5
I do recall reading some posts about Bandit - I'm sorry to hear that he is still having problems. I cannot recall details, but here are some questions: * How old is Bandit? * What tests has bandit been through and what were the results/ Has bandit had blood work (Complete blood cell count and chem panel? unltrasound? fine needle aspirate of spleen (relatively "easy") and or lymph nodes?) * Has bandit been on any treatments - if so what has he been on? what has helped/not helped?
A history of non--specific, lingering illness that varies in intensity over time, enlarged lymph nodes with growths on them, skin/membrane color changes, enlarged spleen, gastric issues, breathing issues is consistent with various cancers, including lymphoma. Even if the tests mentioned above come back clean, bone-marrow cancers are not uncommon.
In general, isolation of symptoms does not provide a good picture of what is going on. There are two basic approaches you can take on this....aggressive diagnosis/treatment vs. gentle medicine and palliative treatment/supportive therapy. Of course, there are varying degrees within the spectrum f treatment for any illness.
I will share my opinion here, and I hope it will be of some help to you just so you know that, there is no definitive "right and wrong" here.......
Over the years that I have owned ferrets, I have found that what works best for me (aggressive treatment vs. gentle treatment) greatly depends upon the animal's age as well as attitude. If the ferret is older and has lived a good life,multiple systems may be starting to fail - even if you fix one problem, it may not be worth putting the animal through misery only to have another problem get worse. If the Animal is young and potentially has a long life in front of him if we can fix one or two things, I'm more likely to try to treat aggressively. Sometimes aggressive treatments can "push a ferret over the edge" and accelerate disease and/or kill the ferret. This is particularly true in the old guys. Gentler treatment such as lots of tests, ultrasounds, needle aspirates, etc. can be tough on the gold guys as well, and these tests may simply confirm what the vet already strongly suspects while you money is flowing out of your wallet faster than its coming back in. With the old guys, it can make sense to "do nothing" - try some holistic treatments to see what helps. For example, my Tomichi girl is over 7, and she most likely has lymphoma and/or liver cancer(enlarged nodes, elevated ALT, distended belly). She has lived a full life and is still enjoying herself immensely. If I start poking at her, she stands a better chance of losing her delicate balance of well-being/quality of life) than she does making a recovery. If she starts to feel crummy, I may opt to"open her up" KNOWING that I will most likely make a decision to let her go on the table (this would be a "last ditch effort" to see if it might make sense to try something).
These are very difficult decisions, because there are no "cut-and-dried answers". Every decision is unique, and there is no "right and wrong" in most cases. My 3 kids are all now over 7, and its really tough dealing with these kinds of issues. Unfortunately, all this is "part of the pet ownership package".
Please keep us posted on bandit - we know what you're going through, and its a lot of stress to deal with.
-jennifer
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Post by ladyhawk on May 23, 2012 8:30:35 GMT -5
I'm sorry for being caught up on the entire thread on Bandit. Just off the top of my head. I have had 2 ferrets with a failing heart. 1 was typical with the enlargement. You said Bandit's Looks fine. So probably not that. However I wonder if he is suffering of enlarged Lymph glands, Could it be one putting pressure on blood flow to the heart or lungs? My Dawson had Lymphoma of the Thymus. Or...have you checked for heart worm? All that aside...It really sux when they get sick and just don't know why . Exploratory surgery might get a answer but could also be fatal. It's a lot to deal with and think about. I'm really sorry Bandit is sick {{Hugs}} I'll put a prayer in for you both.
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Post by Sherry on May 23, 2012 9:05:20 GMT -5
It's really odd given his tests, and I know what the results have been, but it still sounds like heart to me. I can't imagine the frustrations you must have.
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Post by Heather on May 23, 2012 13:47:49 GMT -5
Every time I hear the symptoms of this wee boy my mind says heart and I know it's been tested but the symptoms are very similar. Even the lymphoma that killed Thor, though giving the exact symptoms, it's hugely aggressive and you would know by now if that was it. Thor died within the week of diagnosis. I think I managed to administer 3 doses of pred. To say the least it didn't work at all ciao
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2012 0:15:56 GMT -5
I know it seems like I'm constantly on here asking question after question and you guys have been so patient with me, I just want to let you know that I appreciate all your advice and concern! To Heather - I am so sorry about Thor. I remember reading his thread on here not too long ago. You guys and gals that keep on sharing your life with our precious fuzzies are so strong and kind for doing all you do and going through all you go through! And I agree, it seems that if it was something like lymphoma we would be seeing a much steeper decline in Bandit's health. As it is, he has been having his symptoms for the past 2 of his 3 years of life and he is still a mildly active fert. I keep mentioning his heart to our vet, but all of the xrays, ultrasounds, and his EKG show his heart to be normal (except for the little minor arrythmia he has that our vet says is fairly normal for ferrets). So if it is still his heart how would we further test him to find out??? To ladyhawk - I suppose it is possible for one of the lymph glands to be putting pressure on other areas of his body. This has been mentioned before, but my vet doesn't seem to see this as an issue in his tests, though I don't know if he was exactly looking for something like this. Would such a blocking lymph node be visible on xrays and ultrasounds? And as for heartworms, we haven't had him directly tested for them but on our last visit I did mention this as a possiblity and through all of Bandit's blood tests and xrays our vet says he doesn't see this as the problem. He says there is no visible/blood evidence of heartworms present. To mustelidmusk - Bandit is a 3yo sable male Marshall's ferret. He has had multiple sets of full blood work-ups run with normal results, including testing for sugar levels. He has had several sets of xrays done - his first set on his 2nd birthday show no growths, but his second set done about 6 months later show multiple growths on his organs and lymph nodes (or maybe just swollen lymph nodes), especially his spleen. These xrays showed normal heart and lungs and no blockages, though there were strange tiny dots in his intestines after his first violent vomiting episode that no one knows what they are. And during these xrays his intestines were bulgy in several areas. Our vet seems to think this was from the physical act of vomiting as these spots and bulgy intestines were not seen on the next set of xrays taken the very next day. His untrasound done around this same time (which was approx. 6 months ago) reveal the same results as the xrays. Our vet did take aspirates of the masses on his spleen (though I'm not sure if he took any from the lymph nodes) and they can back benign. He said that they masses were reactive, but what they are 'reacting' to/developing from we are unsure, and this lies our problem. We have also had an EKG done which revealed a small minor arrythmia our vet says is fairly normal for ferrets. As for a very quick run down of his symptoms - besides the strange breathing pattern I have already described, Bandit's symptoms have progressed over the past 2 years from simple coughing to hacking (sometimes wet sounding) which has on 3 occassions turned into violent vomiting episodes. Even though he is the dominant fert of our business he has become rather lethargic about everything over the past year. He was never extremely active, but he is even less so now mostly sitting on the sidelines. However, he is very aware, very smart, eats well, pottys well enough, begs lots, and likes to follow me around. And recently, his nose is becoming whiter. TREATMENTS - we tried pred for 4 weeks with no visible results. We have changed his food to determine if there are allergies (too many times we have changed I think) and it does appear that he might have an allergy to products (kibble and treats) high in chicken content. Recently we have given him Rescue Remedy when he presents with a coughing episode and it seems to help him calm down and stop coughing. As for other treatments, there are none as we have no idea what is wrong. I have spoken with 2 ferret knowledgeable vets in my state and they both agree that exploratory surgery and biopsy are my final options. But I have a hard time deciding to do this when Bandit isn't HORRIBLE and doesn't seem to be in pain (though he does have his bad days when I can tell he just doesn't feel good) when I know surgery can make things worse for him. That is why I keep posting threads, to see if there is any other option for us. Again, thank you all so much for your responses!!!
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2012 0:57:03 GMT -5
I'm sorry to hear you're still having problems with your baby. I hope you can get to the bottom of this
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2012 9:10:24 GMT -5
Hmmmm......heart disease can be strange as there are different types of issues that can affect the heart. Two things that seem to be indicators of heart disease if the heart is pumping inefficiently: 1. exercise will make the problem worse (can be true of any problem) 2. an inefficient heart will cause the heart rate to be accelerated. Transient issues (short-lived episodes of erratic heart beats) do not tend to cause general/systemic disease (lethargy all the time and issues with lymph nodes and other organs) like a chronic problem that is constant and long-standing. I am no expert by any means, but heart disease is usually pretty advanced by the time other organs are showing signs of issues as a result of heart disease alone. I would expect that heart disease would show similar symptoms, although am unfamiliar with heart disease in ferrets. One thing I do know about heart disease in ferrets is that the problems typically results in pulmonary hypertension in ferrets, which may be detectable by ultra sound. (More questions for your vet?) I will say that I did have a ferret that had lymphoma with no blood abnormalities, lymph node issues, etc. We could not determine what was going on. Lymphoma was found in the bone marrow upon necropsy. That was the only indication of disease even found. There are some other diseases that cause weird, systemic problems - ADV comes to mind as does the ferret FIP-like disease. I honestly know nothing about either of these diseases. Here is some information. www.smallanimalchannel.com/ferrets/ferret-health/emerging-disease-ferret-fip.aspxwww.vet.uga.edu/vpp/clerk/schuler/index.phpUnfortunately, exploratory surgery can sometimes be the only real choice for diagnosis, but you may want to ask about ADV/FIP testing before automatically opting for surgery. I will warn you that it's not uncommon to spend lots of money on tests and still end up with the exploratory surgery anyway (if you choose to go that route) I really hope that bandit just starts to recover - and you never figure out what the problem has been....that can happen. Hang in there, I KNOW how difficult all this is. -jennifer
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Post by acodlin on May 24, 2012 11:04:04 GMT -5
If its FIP then MSU needs a tissue sample to confirm =/ There is a thread about FIP here that can be looked at, I have a PDF from MSU that gives info about testing/treatment ect..however if it was FIP I would expect it to respond to pred.
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Post by misskat on May 24, 2012 12:23:56 GMT -5
I understand how maddening it can be to have something be wrong with your buddy and no one having a clue what to do about it. I have no suggestions other than palliative care, and lots of loving to the fuzzbutt,
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2012 23:56:10 GMT -5
do you have a link to the info on FIP, the one that was mentioned to be on here and the one from msu - i can't seem to find the thread
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2012 4:04:25 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2012 4:05:10 GMT -5
I've given up using proboards search. If I want to find something, I just type "Holistic ferret (insert search term)" into google. It is usually more effective
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