Raw Diet for Insulinoma

[Gg]

Does anyone have suggestions for feeding a fuzzy with this illness? My little Momo was diagnosed the other week with this but I have a terrible feeling that it started long before. After the for sure knowledge that this is what's keeping him in bed all day, I quickly switched to soupie (I made the mistake of starting by putting a pinky out for him and my other, Appa, which I'm sure you know what look I received) that contained liver, neck and legs and they seemed to like that.. but now that I'm adding in heart and thigh, they wont eat it. Their strike has been going on for 2 days. I use a syringe to get a little something in them. Today I caved and used a very small amount of their old kibble (orijen cat/kitten) to coat some raw pieces of thigh. Momo took to a few pieces and Appa ran away.
Also, how do you guys feel about keeping them on the soup and leaving out a hamster drip bottle so they have it all day long?
Any suggestions will help!
I also want to note that Momo started dragging his hind leg friday, oct 19th for a few seconds, he quickly bounced back (This is when I quickly changed his diet to raw soup which he took to very well-unlike currently). The next day, he was red and itchy all over. His penis and ears looked very red and his skin felt warm. The day after that, his fever went down but he was coughing all day. And the next, he seemed perky and back to normal, aside from the fact that he was sleeping a lot more. Since then, he's been up and down with his energy. He saw the vet on 26th. He hasn't had his distemper shot in almost 3 years due to no distemper being available in Las Vegas, nv. There's also a lack of vets (which I won't name unless you private message me) that support raw feed and when I ask about it, they say it's unnatural or can give them salmonella. They also prescribed Momo Prednisone and Clavamox.
Appa was diagnosed with adrenal disease a few years ago as well. Poor guys, the older they get, the more I wish I would've known how dire strict their diet should be. It breaks my heart to see them in bed all day long when they usually stay up most of the day. Anything helps and thank you in advance.
-Gina

[abbeytheferret6]

I am sorry about your little ones being sick. I know others will be better qualified to tell you how to feed raw to ferrets with insulinoma. You always want to have food out though--- and once ferrets take to raw soupie, you can start introducing slivers to it. Every week or so I feed mine Natural Instincts Raw frozen rabbit cubes from Petco (in freezer and for cats). I thaw them and mix some water into a heavy soup mixture. At first I had to finger fed them, but they have taken to it really well. I do not give the chicken, because i already feed mine cornish during week. End result of a total switch is not to be too chicken heavy and have 3 (and better if more) different proteins.

Hare Today has a variety of proteins and some grinds.
Perfect Prey has mice and rats.

I had to skin and cut up mice and rats to get mine to eat them at first. I also had to put some Alaskan salmon oil on mice to get one of mine to eat them. I had to get her to like salmon oil first. It takes a lot of work to switch them sometimes, but it is worth it. 

According to my notes, soupie is good for 6-8 hours. I would put soupie out in a saucer. I also use waterbowls for my ferrets. They have taken over my Fiesta dinnerware bowls, which are pretty heavy particularly with water in them.

He hasn't had his distemper shot in almost 3 years due to no distemper being available in Las Vegas, nv.

Read more: holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/23718/raw-diet-insulinoma#ixzz4xBM6BEPy

I would not worry about distemper shots unless you have heard of distemper outbreak nearby. Also it is not recommended to give vaccinations to sickly ferrets. One distemper is what some practice on forum, while others do not give them at all. You can keep ferrets way from dogs that have not had distemper shots---particularly from roaming dogs.

Continue to ask questions.

[Sherry]

Raw by far will be better. However you have to do a slow switch for them as they don't know it's food. Best bet is to sign up for a mentor, and start a switching thread in Diet Transitions. What dose of pred is your guy on?

[Gg]

Oh that's a good idea! I didn't know just chicken was an issue, I'll pick up some rabbit today! Is there any part of meat they shouldn't have? or what meats are good cooked and which arent? (bacon, ..I know spices aren't good)
Is this a brand of slamon oil you'd say is okay?

www.petco.com/shop/en/petcostore/product/wild-alaskan-salmon-oil?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&adpos=1o1&scid=scplp1020803&sc_intid=1020803&cm_mmc=PLA-GG-_-PTC_P_BND_PLA-GG_FY17_SCShopping-TM-_-Non+VIP-_-92700026086767577&kwid=p26086767577&device=c&gclid=EAIaIQobChMInNrzveed1wIV1LjACh2oTQSyEAYYASABEgLlS_D_BwE

What's your sanitation clean up look like also in your room? Do you feed them in a big plastic tub or do you let them free roam with the carcass? My fuzzies are allowed to raom freely in my room at all times. So it's been a messy clean up. I'm okay with it, but I notice it's leaving a smell, any suggestions on that? It doesn't bother be but I may or may not be having guests over at some point (:

I noticed that the raw helped their coats immensely! They're both rocking some shiny locks now! Also, Appa seems to see better and Momo hears better after such a short time!

That's good to know about the distemper too! What if I wanted to bring them to the park? Appa just had his rabies and distemper but Momo was too sick so we did a blood test instead, which showed the insulinoma. If I do vaccinate him, should I wait until he's eating better and more than just a couple of weeks on his meds?
Momo will definitely not be going outside until he's back to normal completely. And if I don't vacc him, how common is getting anything from a local park?

Momo was prescribed 2 ml of clavamox two times daily for 2 weeks.
Prednisone 1/4 of a 5mg tablet twice daily as well for the rest of his life. The veterinarian suggested to mask the pill in peanut butter but I know that usually contains sugar. If I were to crush up my own peanuts and make my own peanut butter, would that be okay or would their body break that down into sugars as well?

I really wanted to get a montor if possible but going to the Mentor page, it said I had to have certain amount of posts and threads so I started working on that!

Also, if anyone has vet recommendations out here in las vegas, please send them my way!

[Blue]

what meats are good cooked and which arent?

Don't feed any cooked meat, all the nutrients a ferret needs are destroyed during the cooking process. The meat needs to be raw. I read something here once that made me laugh: you don't see polecats in the wild sitting around campfires, cooking their meat, do you?

Same for the peanut butter: even if you make your own, it's still plant-based, which is bad for them. Salmon oil should work if they like it. If they don't like it, start out with a mix of salmon oil and ferretone, or something else they like, and slowly increase the amount of salmon oil until it's 100% oil. In general we don't recommend ferretone (carcinogens), but to teach them how to like salmon oil, that would be OK.

I'm not sure about the salmon oil you listed -- it has preservatives in it. I think the Grizzly brand has only salmon oil, nothing else (it says for dogs but that's fine, it's the same salmon oil for all pets):

www.amazon.com/dp/B0002AB9FS/ref=asc_df_B0002AB9FS5244323

I know we have a list of recommended vets here, but I couldn't find any listings for Las Vegas. There are some listed on this website, but I don't know if those were recommended by satisfied customers:

www.all-about-ferrets.com/ferret-vets-nevada.html

And welcome to the board! You'll get to 15 posts in no time.

[LindaM]

You can also simply bypass the mixing of oils and use the Grab'n'Dab method of introduction. Grab a ferret, dab some on their nose/mouth/gums, give a second to let them lick it and let them go. You can do this through the day or in a timed session of say 20 or 30 minutes, dabbing every 5 minutes, for the course of a few days.

Preferred brands for salmon oil tends to be Grizzly or Alaskan Naturals. Always look at the ingredients of the items that you buy, as they will sometimes contain bad or even dangerous ingredients best avoided.

[Gg]

Haha, thanks! I feel welcome.
I think if I saw polecats around a campfire cooking dinner, I'd steal them all and make them family. I figured cooking is always going to release the good stuff. Even the egg yolks they get are raw and no whites
I know I've said it already but I'm sad I saw this thread later in the game. I've been giving them ferretone and pumpkin their whole lives thinking it was okay since it was suggested by the vets..which I've knocked out almost half of that list from the link you sent over! Thank you for that, by the way! This superb forum never seizes to amaze me. Okay, I'll be ordering that oil online. The stores in my city don't have those brands. They do have Life Line salmon oil but the ingredients read: salmon oil and natural mixed tocopherols. I'm assuming the second one isn't good.
grab n dab! I snatch and grab my fuzzbutts when they run past me! Swoop!
I love the portraits of your little Gods and Goddesses :3

[Sherry]

Natural mixed tocepherols us fine. It's just vit e

[Gg]

Nov 2, 2017 9:48:33 GMT -5 Sherry said:

Natural mixed tocepherols us fine. It's just vit e

So today Momo had a seizure. I realized the other day that I heard something similar just a few days before taking him into the vet but I was asleep and wasn't sure what I heard or if it even came from them. I got home, it was almost exactly 12 hours between the medication time but I was only late by 10 minutes when I noticed that he was acting strange. Wanted to be alone, went into a play tunnel and stood there, dazing. When I looked at him, he looked nervous and kept running away behind things, then eventually ran to the baby gate, flattened himself on the ground and started to moan/scream. I grabbed the karo syrup and only gave him 3 big licks. He wasn't screaming anymore, that was only for a few seconds, but he was drooling just a little. I called the emergency vet (not the one I go to at Aloha..this one was called Las Vegas Animal Emergency Center) and asked if I should mix the pred pills crushed with the karo syrup, they said yes so I did. He was pawing at his mouth and started to be vocal and fight me a bit. He's usually quiet. He seemed like he was mentally gone on and off and then we were off to the vet. They took him in and by the time we got there, his levels were stabilized. They upped his dose of prednisone to .3 ml and put it in a liquid form so its accurate. He told me that we'd have to increase the meds until eventually the pred won't work anymore and we'll need stronger medication. On the way home, I noticed he wet himself. I always assumed that he was wet from drool if I saw he was damp after waking up which wasn't too often until recently. I got him home and fed him a soupie of chicken thigh since it's muscle meat day but after he ate what seemed to be a delicious meal from him slurping it up, he went to the corner he usually throws up in and started acting strange again. Could this be a chicken allergy he just developed?
Also, even now with him sleeping on my belly, he's slowly peeing so there's a wet bubble developed. He's in a deep sleep because he's twitching. Is there something I can give him to help regulate any of these seizures? I know switching should usually be taken slow but I didn't do it slowly at all considering how progressed the insulinoma seemed to be.
When he used the bathroom, he's been dragging his bum across the floor alot too..

[Sherry]

Sorry that he seized, poor boy It is so hard on their bodies. Good on administering the karo right away. It might also be an idea to keep some meat only baby food on hand as they NEED a high protein meal within 20-30 minutes of having the karo to prevent another drop in BG. The syrup causes the sugars to spike, which is what helps bring them around. Unfortunately usually within an hour or so they drop drastically if not fed shortly after. That is likely why he was acting nauseated about the food after the vet visit. I'll admit though- if the strength is 5mg/5ml I am surprised his dose is so low. That is what my 1lb girl started on. The wetting himself would be because his body was put through a trauma with the seizure.
Dragging his butt across the floor after going potty is normal however. It is how they clean themselves.
One other thought- does he have access to food 24/7 still?

[Gg]

Nov 8, 2017 10:53:32 GMT -5 Sherry said:

Sorry that he seized, poor boy It is so hard on their bodies. Good on administering the karo right away. It might also be an idea to keep some meat only baby food on hand as they NEED a high protein meal within 20-30 minutes of having the karo to prevent another drop in BG. The syrup causes the sugars to spike, which is what helps bring them around. Unfortunately usually within an hour or so they drop drastically if not fed shortly after. That is likely why he was acting nauseated about the food after the vet visit. I'll admit though- if the strength is 5mg/5ml I am surprised his dose is so low. That is what my 1lb girl started on. The wetting himself would be because his body was put through a trauma with the seizure.
Dragging his butt across the floor after going potty is normal however. It is how they clean themselves.
One other thought- does he have access to food 24/7 still?

I know he seemed coherant in the stages where he wasn't screaming. Luckily it only lasted for a few seconds.
I keep a bottle of the syrup in every room just in case! He wasn't fed right away. The emergency vet that takes exotics is 20 minutes away and by the time they released him after giving him more pred, we werent home until almost an hour. Maybe more. How is your girl doing with the 5mg? I'm sorry she has it also. It's a damper on their energy. I can see the changes in Momo clearly now. I hope your girl is okay. <3 The vets did state that eventually he'll need more until we move up to another prescription and we upped his dose in less than a month but only by .1ml

I do leave out the soup for them both all day but unless it's chicken they won't touch it on their own just yet. Luckily I can make my own schedule so I'm able to make sure that I'm spoon feeding them every 2-3 hours! I don't trust going all night without monitoring. I heard that I can leave out kibble for the times I wont be there but I feel like that might be backtracking with these two.
Oh, he also hasn't been wetting himself ever since I 've been feeding him more often. I try to encourage him to wake up and eat every hour and a half, I let him tell me if he wants to or not. After 3 he doesnt get a choice.
My vet also said that anything over 60 in his BS levels is a success but I've also heard of ferrets thriving on only 50.. I have a meter so I'm able to check periodically!

[Sherry]

Anything under 70 isn't actually good when treated with pred. The ideal is to get them up over 80. My boy with it now regularly reads in over 90 just before his next feeding(he gets fed 3 times a day) and he's had it over a year. Under 60 and he will remain nauseated. If it happens again, give him the karo, wait until he is somewhat aware(about 10-15 minutes), give him the meat only baby food via syringe if necessary, THEN go to the vet. That should help prevent the nausea from being such a concern.
With my girl we lost her a few years back. She started with the typical hind end weakness, and started on .3 of pred BID at the strength I mentioned. When her bg couldn't be brought up with that, she went to .4 BID which didn't work either. We had a pancreatic debulking done on her, which gave her a week of normal bg before dipping again. At that point we realized we were dealing with a malignant cancer of the pancreas rather than simple insulinoma. We had her for a year in total after original diagnosis. Her bg never went over 40.

[Gg]

I'm sorry to hear that It's so sad to see these little ones go over the bridge.
I'm not entirely familiar with the terms.. What is BID?
I'll have to inform my vet about the below 70 again. I hear different numbers left and right. His bg never really goes over 83 in his reading and I've been checking frequently before and after meals. I did have a separate vet tell me that I can give him more or less depending on his actions per day. I felt uneasy about that considering I'm still learning his new body language. If I give Momo more than hes prescribed, say I give him .5ml rather the .3, I have to keep giving him that amount, right?

[Sherry]

Sorry, worked in the medical field for too many years lol. BID means twice daily by mouth. And talk to the vet to increase amount. I only look at adjusting meds after I am getting a consistently high reading for a few months, or a consistently low reading for a week or so. I also consult with the vet first.

[Gg]

Lol that was my first guess Okay I'll call them again in the morning! Thank you for replying, always!