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Post by Heather on Apr 7, 2017 22:16:30 GMT -5
There are three "natural" colours in ferrets....sable, sandy and albino. Each colour comes from it's natural area of origin and it's one recessive accepted colour...albino. As mentioned in your book of colours, any deviation, natural selection would get rid of the oddball mixes. Originally, many years ago, the albino would be the fluke colour (recessive). It has no issue in itself other than being light sensitive, they hear as well as any other ferret....DEWs on the other hand are almost always deaf (note I said almost). Look up irish spotting. So, why the albino. They're a lot easier to see when your hunting your ferrets, so natural selection had nothing to do with the rise of this colour...humans decreed it. So, they were prized, specially selected. Chosen and bred for their ease of handling, their hunting skills and how easy they're to see in the hedgerow. Now, there are pure albino lines, same as they're pure sable lines/poley. Mixing albinos and sables.... often this results in various "markings". The more white you get (lack of colour) the more health issues you will get. This is especially noted near the head. Odd coloured eyes (blue, green) are also indicative of possible health issues. ciao
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Post by Sherry on Apr 8, 2017 8:17:57 GMT -5
Albino was a natural mutation that occurred, and still occurs. If those ones are bred, you can have sable, albino, or any number of colours(if I am remembering correctly) However an albino born to an albino will always BE albino. It seems the colour gene was bred out ages ago.
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Post by crazylady on Apr 8, 2017 12:52:27 GMT -5
Hi yes sherry you are correct the color gene in the albino was bred out years and years ago you also find that the pure albino lines tend to be soft teddy bears lol my dad always preferred the albino when working as Heather has said easy to spot in hedgerows ect ( he also felt them soft enough to carry in his coat pocket lol) he never carried a ferret box when out working lol you tend to find sandy/ silver being hunted a lot more now why I have no idea maybe the trusted albino is becoming in short supply take care bye for now Bev
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 3:34:05 GMT -5
Albinos these days seems to be almost anything 'under' their white - I have heard of albinos crossed to standard poleys throwing silvers and mitts.
It does seem to be everywhere though, very few of my own sables are free of albino and they do pop up.
This year I have a mix of albino, dark sable, dark sable mitt (big surprise for me!) and just one silver, all in the same litter. What I expected/wanted was dark sables with no white marks and dark silvers.
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Post by Heather on Apr 9, 2017 11:27:26 GMT -5
Unfortunately, it appears that these random colours start cropping up when mixing albinos with sables/poleys. These "exotic" colours or markings though prized by purchasers who know little about ferrets are the base of many of the health issues we deal with in ferrets. This is why people who are in the know and want to breed healthy ferrets try and breed to avoid these colours and do not mix their albinos and sables. Unfortunately, as Vicki-Ann has mentioned, many have bred carelessly or by design in the past and most lines have become contaminated we often get "surprises" even when we breed carefully The lines in the US farms are so contaminated that even when you buy a sable these days you can end up with a ferret with neural crest issues (deafness and skull deformations). Some of the angora lines are just scary when it comes to colours and fancies. ciao
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marid
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Post by marid on Apr 9, 2017 14:59:13 GMT -5
hmmm maybe i am just confused because the Fret Popper's colour book said something about albinos being colour ferrets with no colour vs DEWs being ferrets with no pigment/melatonine or something that strongly affects hearing and the brain.
I found this part especially interesting:
"Albinos have pigment cells but no tyrosinase to initiate pigment production from tyrosine. Dark eyed whites have tyrosinase for synthesising pigment but have no pigment cells. To use an analogy; albinos have a cooking pot but no ingredients; dark-eyed-whites have the ingredients but no pot for cooking", and "Pigment cells, but not pigment, are essential for the proper function of the inner ear. White-spotting mutations affecting the head region" (Fret Popper 24-25)
My understanding was that the albino gene was triggered through selective breeding. Maybe I am not far along in the book enough but from the charts I've seen on page 17 the breeding of albinos (cc) to sables (CC) would activate one albino (c) recessive gene. From their they would be Cc Dominant sable/recessive albino. And then breed the (Cc) to (cc) and you would have a mix of (Cc) and (cc). I guess i am wondering how this breeding of sable to albino might correspond to neural crest, colours, and health.
As stated, maybe I am not far enough in the book to understand yet. To me at the moment it seems Ok to breed an albino (cc) to a sable (Cc) if we want to have a mix litter of albinos and sables. But... health wise? I don't know.... my partner and i haven't really spoken about what colour we want to breed. I like dark pollies. Deep colour, dark or pink noses. He really like Albinos. And I do have a soft spot for browns.
//edit// I've gotten a little farther in my reading and have a question on Black/full coloured ferrets. Is there any way to know (without genetic testing) whether the black fur is coming from the dominant E+ allele on the extension locus Or from the agouti locus?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2017 2:49:31 GMT -5
My understanding was that the albino gene was triggered through selective breeding. Maybe I am not far along in the book enough but from the charts I've seen on page 17 the breeding of albinos (cc) to sables (CC) would activate one albino (c) recessive gene. From their they would be Cc Dominant sable/recessive albino. And then breed the (Cc) to (cc) and you would have a mix of (Cc) and (cc). I guess i am wondering how this breeding of sable to albino might correspond to neural crest, colours, and health. //edit// I've gotten a little farther in my reading and have a question on Black/full coloured ferrets. Is there any way to know (without genetic testing) whether the black fur is coming from the dominant E+ allele on the extension locus Or from the agouti locus? This is a very simplistic overview of the colour genetics. As with all ferrets there are numerous modifiers that affect the colour that you will actually see on the ferrets. I don't think anyone knows the actual reason why but breeding albinos across other colours can give you all sorts of odd colours. I have seen silver x albinos produce silvers with one full black limb or large black spot, frequently I see albino crosses show mitts as well. Black/full coloured ferrets are best to assess by the colour you see AND lineage. If a black ferret has points, a discernable mask, lighter undercoat and no known angora in the lineage it is likely a dark sable. If it is has a dark undercoat (or no undercoat), no discernable mask or points and there is or could be angora or other fancy lineage I would not touch them with a 10ft barge pole. These ferrets have numerous associated health problems despite their impressive colour. Having said that, my understanding is that E locus specificies eumelanistic or phaeomelanistic (in reality black/brown based colours as opposed to cinnamon/red based colours - not to be confused with cc^p which is sandy and not phaeomelanistic) ... and A locus specifies the presence of hair banding (not colour). I have never come across aa (lack of hair banding) without associated health problems so in my view they are to be avoided at all costs.
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Post by Heather on Apr 10, 2017 3:13:50 GMT -5
You can breed whatever you like and follow any idea you like but breeding albinos to sables is going to produce dilutes and dilutes produces fancy marking, silvers, Mutts and DEWs. There was a lot the old timers got wrong but this was one area where they were right on the ball. The last thing you want is a mixed litter, it shows that you've got a lot of recessive genetics in play. Ultimately, what you're doing is creating recessive (hidden) issues, that will creep up and surprise you time and time again. The idea is to create breedings that you can consistently produce the same healthy stock. You stated your purpose was to create a "healthy" ferret. This is a pie in the sky at best but by breeding whatever you have on hand in whatever colour you're basically breaking that trust. It's hard enough to get ferrets who have not been bred on a dilute. You will ultimately have to decide where your journey is going to take you. ciao
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marid
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Post by marid on Apr 10, 2017 8:47:46 GMT -5
Thank you Vicki-Anne, Heather Your explanations made this more clear for me! I've always been the "why" child (my math teacher hated me lol). But your explanations really helped set me straight Is it ok to breed a brown sable to a sable or is it the same idea since brown is recessive? Thanks so much, y'all are so helpful !
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Post by crazylady on Apr 10, 2017 12:32:51 GMT -5
Hi it depends what you mean by a brown sable ( the colors of ferrets change from country to country lol) do you mean a sandy ( light/darkish brown but carrying a mask ?) if its light or even darkish nine times out of ten there is some albino mixed in polecats normally have dark guard hairs and a yellow golden undercoat ( when in rut the golden becomes sticky orange lol ) and true dark polecats are not easy to handle or tame you need lots of experience with the blacks and I would not attempt to look at there kits not if you want to keep all your fingers lol they are also super sensitive and wouldn't think twice about reabsorbing there young or eating them and how do you know you are getting a hybrid ? or simply a ferret who looks dark there are black selfs out there and a lot of people call them dark sables but the skull shape small eyes and tight tight coats tell a different story they also tend to keep the dark hood and face even in winter unlike a polecat take care bye for now Bev
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marid
New member
Posts: 33
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Post by marid on Apr 12, 2017 17:31:16 GMT -5
Hi all! I've finished reading the Fret Popper book and wanted to know if you had other recommended reads. We also really like the colour of "Hercules" from this breeders page: www.fourpawswrecking.com/page4.htmlIs this a sandy? Would it be ok, health wise, to breed sandies? My partner and I have talked and decided we would like to go with sable, dark sable, or sandies. We love albinos but the reason we got our is because no one would take him because "his eye freak me out" (( he is such a cutie. Not freaky at all poor baby. Thanks and best! -m
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Post by Sherry on Apr 13, 2017 10:24:47 GMT -5
Sandy/champagne same thing UK calls them sandies, we call them champagnes. It is a dilute.
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