marid
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Post by marid on Apr 2, 2017 15:42:00 GMT -5
Hi everyone, My partner and I have been talking about potentially starting our own breeding of ferrets. This comes from a realisation that Canada has practically no ethical/good/etc etc breeders. We think it terrible that the only options are between a mill and a bigger mill. Or, the near impossibility of importing from the USA or UK.
This started us thinking about maybe starting our own in 2-3 years once we had accumulated enough information and knowledge, and potentially followed a knowledgable breeder.
I have plans to potentially follow a program in animal behaviour, nutrition, or as a vet nurse.
What we would like to know is your experience, both the good and bad. We know that risks. While not the same, my aunt breeds dogs and we have seen and heard of the risks of breeding any animal.
As well, we would like to know the best ways to approach a breeder so that we might be taken under their wing and mentored.
As well as: - any information on breeding and ferrets in Canada. - best approach at breeding - basic info - how many Jill's and hobs to start. - anything else.
My partner and I are expecting to purchase our house in approximately 2-3 years. If we go through with this we expect to have a room dedicated to our ferrets and a seperate area for the hobs / mating areas. Again,any information on this is appreciated.
Again, this is a maybe. We do no want to start anything and cause any harm to our babies. If we do this we want to do it right. We want to be informed. We want to produce healthy kits that will be placed in good homes.
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Post by Heather on Apr 2, 2017 19:51:14 GMT -5
The best bet is to start asking questions as you've started to do. There are breeders in Canada, we're few and far between. There are a number of BYB's who have little care of genetics or health. What type of background do you have in the care and raising of ferrets? ciao
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marid
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Post by marid on Apr 2, 2017 20:36:09 GMT -5
we're few and far between. There are a number of BYB's who have little care of genetics or health. ciao Wait, Heather, are you located in Canada? My partner and I are big animal lovers and I've from a young age wanted to work with animals. I had first wanted to breed cats, or work with my aunt with her dogs, but my partner is allergic and that was the end of that. We have two ferrets currently. I started worrying about health problems when I started reading food labels about 9months ago. I couldn't believe the amount of filler in the food. Not just filler, but starches, tapioca, veggies.... I found this site and started on raw and ... The improvement in health are incredible ; shinier coats, more energy, vet is surprised at their size, teeth, and overall health. We started thinking of getting a third recently but I found out that the breeder* we got our babies from is a mill from Manitoba. Again, the valuable information I've accumulated by ghosting in this site have been incredibly rewarding. While the Manitoba breeder may be potentially better than Marshall I am still less interested in buying from a mill/supporting a mill. We looked for breeders around Quebec and Canada and could only find angora breeders. We got our first baby at around 6 months. No one wanted him because he was albino apparently. Our second was approximately 13 weeks. Both are good babies that no longer bite (unless the occasional excited bite when we play). We've had to deal with a small blockage, administered medication, and make sure that they get their egg or a steam room when they are coughing weird. We had to work with tidbit with his biting (he was a big biter). I recently built them a 7 floor cage (4 sleeping areas/hammocks, many hiding nocks, 2xfeeding den) so that they have more room to roam. They usually spend the day out of cage with us when we are home (at least 8hours a day). We believe that breeding a strong, genetically healthy and sane ferret in Montreal would give Canadians more option. I know we cannot compete with Marshall but I know that this would give people more options. I've heard too many people at my vet complain about their Marshall only living 2-3 years. This breaks my heart. I was horrified that people though this was an average lifespan for a ferret. If I were to breed, I'd like to sell my babies vaccinated, neutered, and vet checked. Pet contract, with a document on food (here in Quebec I've seen many signs saying ferrets can and should eat fruits and vegetables), and that the ferret is to return to me if the family can no longer care for it.
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marid
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Post by marid on Apr 2, 2017 20:39:58 GMT -5
Not ferrets but I've also helped raise three litters of kittens (the mothers were all alley cats and neutered afterwards).
My most recent work was with a young kitten of which I needed to hand feed (his mother abandoned him). 8months later and he is now neutered and living with my brother. (He was a foster -- unfortunately I had to place him once he was 4 months because my partner was experiencing asthma. Fortunately my brother took him)
Sorry for the double post.
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Post by Heather on Apr 3, 2017 9:01:16 GMT -5
Hmm, breeding ferrets is nothing like breeding cats or dogs for that matter. As far as competing with the farms, no....don't even try to go there. Manitoba...RC ferrets isn't a breeder, he's a mill, just like Marshals, Path Valley.....He has no care about his ferrets, he just talks the good talk and his ferrets are no better than the chickens kept in a box for your table. Have you got a vet? A real ferret vet? One who can do surgery on a ferret? What are you going to do with retired breeders? Those that cannot or will not breed? How are you going to keep your jills and what type of birth control are you going to use? There's a couple of questions for you to research ciao
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marid
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Post by marid on Apr 3, 2017 10:32:24 GMT -5
Have you got a vet? A real ferret vet? One who can do surgery on a ferret? What are you going to do with retired breeders? Those that cannot or will not breed? How are you going to keep your jills and what type of birth control are you going to use? There's a couple of questions for you to research ciao Hi again and thanks for the information and questions I do have a wonderful vet who works with ferrets. My boys love her -- she just has the magic touch. X D I was talking with her about people who breed ferrets and we lamented the farms and how sickly most ferrets around my parts are. If I do breed I want to work with her to ensure health and safety. I want to have her on speed dial. Otherwise, their is also a very good ferret vet near Estrie and another near Gatineau. I've got four potential vets who work with and know how/have the experience to perform surgery on ferrets. Retired ferrets; depending on the ferret, personality, health, etc I would desex and place them in a loving home where they could be pets. I may desex and keep some depending on temperament after the desexing, time, and etc. I know that I would probably keep my first hob as a pet after he is retired. I was wondering if I can keep my Jill's with my gibs in their ferret castle (6 feet tall, 3x2 feet wide, 7 stories) and after mating them I'd place them in a calmer cage on their own with more blankets and nesting options. If been trying to do a lot of research on this and it's remarkably difficult to obtain all the information I am looking for. For example: - when not in season, can i let all my ferrets play together? Is it bad to have two hobs share a playpen/playroom? I was thinking of having a ferret Nation cage for each hob. - I was thinking of the Jill jab or a vasectomy hobblet to keep take my Jill's out of season. But, could i mate them each time they fall in season if they haven't produced a litter? How long should I wait between litters to ensure health? How many litters is recommended per year? And at what age should they start being bred (I mean, Jill's can come into season at 4 months... But that does not sound like a good age for breeding. That, to me, seems too young). -When should a Jill and hob be retired? - when should the kits be desex? Is 4 months too young? This is why I've come to this site to ask questions. I feel like their is info online but that I can't get the info I want. I feel like I need to talk about it one on one with people who know what they are doing. I need the human element. If I do this, I want to make sure I know as much as I can. I want to try and have a mentor and follow their litters and learn from them. I want to make sure that I'm breeding for quality. For health. And this starts with choosing the right breeding pair. But again, i am asking myself how I will choose my breeding stock, which breeder I will work with for my first litter. Being in Canada, can I still participate in shows to ensure my business conforms to standards? I'm sorry if I am asking too much of this forum. This is not something I take lightly and this is why I want to study it thoroughly before making a final decision. I won't be able to compete with any farm, but I want to give Canadians another option. The option I wish I had. I know this venture will cost me, in travel, in vet bills, in set up, etc. But I really want healthy babies in this area.
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Post by crazylady on Apr 3, 2017 14:06:50 GMT -5
Hi I will try and answer some of your questions I am a breeder and an international ferret judge I live in england and have been around ferrets all my life ( first ferret given to me aged 7 by my father I am now 56 lol) some ferrets can live in a business ( jills ) hobs can be a real handful in and out of season I have a couple of brothers who live together they are whole and play the mating game making a nice mess of each others necks every year go with a vas hob as not every jill comes out of season with a jill jab never breed a jill over and over I Breed my jills at the age of two and if I am desperate for another litter to save that line at the age of four you may think why two and why wait until four simple at two a jill is finally mature ( at one they are like children ( 1 year in a ferrets life = 10 years would you let a ten year old child have a baby?) they also require a calcium rich diet before during and after giving birth as a jill uses a lot of calcium producing good bone structures for her fetuses plus she uses up her own bodies calcium in the first 3 weeks of feeding her kits this is why a calcium rich diet is a must ( the break in between breeding gives you time to put back the calcium she has used not all jills make good mothers some will refuse to feed kits others may kill and eat them if they feel you are threatening there kits and some mothers also turn into crazy things who will bit anyone or anything that dares to go near her nest jills that come into season at 4 months have been over exposed to unnatural light ( ferrets that live indoors are exposed to more light than normal dawn to dusk hours and there body clock is confused ) always make health and longevity your goal some people crave fancy colors but is shortening a ferrets life worth it ? choosing the right breeding pair maybe difficult if the breeders do not keep detailed records there is no pedigree for ferrets so you have to take what they say as the truth !I have not judged any shows in Canada but I do know each country has its own standard lol I believe they must be tested and carry the correct info about rabies injections and prove they are disease free your Albino is very cute by the way lol yes think long and hard before you decide kits eat like horses and thats no understatement a litter of six is fed four times a day until they are 8-10 weeks old I have had a litter of six strip every ounce of meat from a whole 3 1/12 1b rabbit over night leaving only a fur coat and the feet no one who breeds ferrets correctly and feeds them correctly ever makes a dollar out of breeding ferrets most make a loss or end up with heartache not every litter is successful hope this helps take care bye for now Bev
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marid
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Post by marid on Apr 3, 2017 16:24:36 GMT -5
Hi Crazylady! Thank you for the mass information! So, if I understand correctly, Jills can be with housed with gibs amd you recommend that jills be bred between the ages of 2-4 years. How many litters can you expect during one year? During her pregnancy I should give the Jill more calcium -- more bone in?
Also, if 2 years = 20 human years, I assume I must also wait 2 years before breeding my hob?
At the moment I am reading Fret Popper's Coat Colour Book that was very graciously given to me here ^_^ Everyone is so kind. I want to make health my absolute number one. I do however have a huge soft heart for dark sables with black noses ! Gorgeous.
I do not expect to make money from this. I've known from the start it would be a labour of love.
I would like to know how I could/should go about selecting a kit (as I will probably need to travel to the Ohio show in order to pick them up since I live too far to meet most USA breeders), and which gender I should get first, or at the same time, etc. Should I get my vasectomy boy next so that I can already have him? I assume he will act like an intact male and will be ... icky ;p and need his own cage away from my gibs?
Thank you so much for your help, -M
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Post by nancyl on Apr 3, 2017 18:21:18 GMT -5
I like to wait till the jills are two years to breed. Hobs are fine if used younger. I know that in the UK and other places many breeders do wait till the hobs are two as well.
A v-hob will act just like a non-vasectomized hob, so yes, he'll be greasy, stinky, slimey and a pain in the butt when he's in rut.
I'd also recommend being very selective about buying kits from most U.S. breeders. (And there are some whose names are frequently tossed out here as "good" that are questionable at best. And not all from the States.) They mostly breed for showing so there is, frankly, not so much interest in health problems as there should be. Many of them are waking up to the fact that the fancy colors come with many associated problems and are starting to try to incorporate European lines in the hopes of cleaning up the gene pool they're using. There is also the problem than far too many breeders in the States have no clue about genetics and how even the basics work.
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marid
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Post by marid on Apr 3, 2017 19:44:20 GMT -5
I like to wait till the jills are two years to breed. Hobs are fine if used younger. I know that in the UK and other places many breeders do wait till the hobs are two as well. A v-hob will act just like a non-vasectomized hob, so yes, he'll be greasy, stinky, slimey and a pain in the butt when he's in rut. I'd also recommend being very selective about buying kits from most U.S. breeders. (And there are some whose names are frequently tossed out here as "good" that are questionable at best. And not all from the States.) They mostly breed for showing so there is, frankly, not so much interest in health problems as there should be. Many of them are waking up to the fact that the fancy colors come with many associated problems and are starting to try to incorporate European lines in the hopes of cleaning up the gene pool they're using. There is also the problem than far too many breeders in the States have no clue about genetics and how even the basics work. Ick. Ok. So slimey baby. I assume I can't keep a hoblet with my gibs ? Do you have any suggested Reading for ferret genetics? If I breed, I do want to make sure I have healthy babies. Do you think you might be able to pm me any breeders you suggest from the USA? As someone from Canada importing ferrets from Europe is neigh impossible Thank you for your time and information
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Post by Heather on Apr 4, 2017 1:19:31 GMT -5
I don't breed until my jills are 2....hobs, so far they've been almost 2 yrs. If I breed a jill and she produces a litter, I will not ask her to produce another litter for another full season. So if she's bred at 2 (this is maturity, my guys grow until they're at least 18 months, so never before 2) I will not ask her for another litter until she's 4. So, she gets a full year of rest. She visits with the v-hob, turns her sisters into babies and enjoys a summer of not looking after bratty kits. It takes a lot out of them to produce a healthy litter. They aren't rodents and only the farms and BYBs breed their jills to death and tell them they have to breed multiple times during a year . I don't ask a jill to offer more than 2 litters in her lifetime. It's about quality, not quantity. Your hobs and hoblet may or may not play well with others. It's better to assume they won't and be surprised. The B&E twins lived their whole life together (hob and hoblet). Right now Bacchus lives with a little Marshals sprite (Enigma passed away a few months ago, to liver cancer...no, just because they're good breed stock doesn't make them immune to cancer, they're still ferrets). Bacchus is a gentle soul and though he's very good at his job, he's a sweet boy and treats his little Marshals "sister" as his best friend. Tico on the other hand was a wee blighter and had to live on his own. He was just a self centred, egocentric hob, he was the true meaning of hobnoxious. He loved his people but he had no use for other ferrets except his jills. During the off season, I have play groups that are mixed. You have to be very careful and watch your lighting so that your wee ones don't come into season during their shut down time. Ferrets have to shut down to keep healthy. Generally, if you get your lighting right and the weather isn't too warm, your ferrets will come out of season around August/Sept and usually not come back in until after the winter solstice. It's not about making many kits. The only reason one breeds is to improve, so if there is no kit worth keeping out of a litter then that line is a failure and you close it down and move on. This is not a venture for the short of funds or the faint of heart. You usually keep the best out of your litters to keep your line going, so if there is nothing worth keeping then your goals for breeding is a waste of money and time. You cut your losses and keep what works and start again. One thing to remember as a "reputable" breeder, all you create you are responsible for. Anything you sell will always have a home with you. If a kit you have sold becomes homeless then that kit, adult, senior is your responsibility. Never should your creations find their way to be a burden to shelters, rescues.....they are your responsibility from cradle to grave. ciao
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marid
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Post by marid on Apr 4, 2017 12:58:55 GMT -5
Hmmmm I'll have to meet some good ferrets to start understanding more -- I do want to breed for quality and pursuit of improving the breed.
And, of course, my tentative selling contract (and tentative website I've built) include a clause that the ferret must be returned to me if they are no longer able of taking care of it... I'm also wondering if I could contact the local pounds to let them know that they should contact me if ever they get dropped off... But not sure if that could work (and how they would know it's mine... Microchip? : / : S) bloop.
What do you all think of my idea of following a breeder and learning from them? Of course this would have to me online seeing as I live in Montreal.
Best, -Marie
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Post by Heather on Apr 4, 2017 13:12:49 GMT -5
My mentor is in the UK. Only a few of us are lucky enough to have our mentors within travelling distance. Much better really because it sometimes becomes difficult for communication in a timely fashion and sometimes the information is easier to convey when you can pop over for tea. If your breeder is within a timely driving distance you can also make use of vets, v-hobs and other "shared" information and services. One such instance occurred during a breeding season was a jill dying leaving a litter. This is not something you can take over doing. Finding a surrogate jill is the only way to save that litter. With a bit of scrambling and a lot of driving and more than a bit of luck the breeders banded together and fostered these kits on their jills and saved, I believe, most of the litter. As far as keeping track of your kits, mine are all microchipped. I know that when I was involved in breed specific dog rescue the breeders in the area did notify shelters but if you've got a kit on the other side of the country, things have a tendency to get complicated. ciao
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marid
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Post by marid on Apr 4, 2017 16:09:07 GMT -5
Wow Heather that's awesome! Unfortunately I've only found 2 "breeders" in Quebec / Ontario, and they mostly breed angora. It's disappointing that there are only ferret farms here....
EDIT: Omg Heather. I assumed you were saying you got mentored in the Uk in person and now I just saw that you are from Ontario. >.<! My phone was not showing me these details!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2017 3:49:33 GMT -5
I agree with all that has been said. I personally do not agree with retiring and rehoming ex-breeding ferrets. For this reason, I have a lot of ferrets myself and they will stay with me for the rest of their days, even though they will not have any more litters. I owe them that.
I also agree that if there is nothing worth keeping from a litter, it is a failure. I frequently keep more than one from my litters and I have never repeated a mating, to me that is producing numbers for no good reason. If I have what I wanted from that particular pairing, it's a success and there's no need to repeat it.
I do not breed more than one litter per year from each jill. And have only ever bred one jill two years in succession (she had one kit in the first year). I don't think I would do it again though.
I have many ferrets I kept for breeding and later decided were unsuitable for various reasons, but they stay anyway as they are settled in their groups and deserve the stability.
My ferrets cost me around £100-150 per month outside of kit season, in kit season I can spend up to £500 per month on my ferrets. I don't sell huge numbers so I lose money every season, but I am happy if I achieve what I wanted and my ferrets are happy and healthy.
I have reservations lined up before every litter, and almost every time some people are let down as I do not aim to produce numbers to fill demand, it goes against my ethics really.
There is an awful lot of work involved to research lines, plan pairings, feed the number of ferrets properly (raw-fed) and handle and play with everyone. Not to mention vetting potential homes when there are kits and also providing support for kit owners. I keep in touch with all of the people who have my kits, and they know they can phone me any time of the day or night and I will be there to help. I have had 2 instances of ferrets returned that could no longer be kept, and always make it clear to new owners they must contact me if they can't keep their ferrets as I will take them back regardless of their age, health, condition etc.
I don't think it's about numbers of jills and hobs in the end, it's about the quality. I currently have 6 hobs, which is rather a lot but they all have qualities I may want to use in the future so here they are.
It's a lot of work and also a lot of heartache, but I would urge you to think long and hard about why you would be going into breeding and whether you can afford it, whether you could potentially house and keep every single you have bred over the years if they should be returned and whether you can try and be ruled partly by your head to make good breeding choices for the future of ferrets.
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