raebees
Junior Member
Raw Feeder
Yes, i am contagious. ๐๐
Posts: 219
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Post by raebees on Jan 22, 2017 3:11:07 GMT -5
Adrenal disease and Insulinoma - what I know is that I don't know enough and certainly don't have the experience to back it up.
Adrenal disease are tumors on the adrenal gland. It's primary contributing factors are thought to be spaying/neutering too young, or altogether, and exposure to too much light. It can strike intact ferrets but is much more rare. The first symptom ferret owners usually notice is thinning of the fur or fur loss. It usually occurs around the base of the tail, although it can happen anywhere. There are two accepted treatments - surgery to remove the most damaged gland, if both are affected, which does not guarantee the remaining glands health, or the Suprelorin implant, commonly referred to as DES. Though the implant is 'good' for a year, it is better to re-administer every six months to prevent breakthrough symptoms as that can allow the disease to progress. Some owners combine the DES implant and the melatonin implant as melatonin must be given orally within a very small window to be effective. The melatonin implant can help with the fur loss and skin issues that accompany adrenal disease. It will not affect the tumors and should not be used as sole treatment.
Insulinoma are tumors on the pancreas. It's primary contributing factors, aside from genetics, is poor diet (ie. carbohydrates, sugars). Starting at the age of 2, it's recommended to start getting your ferrets fasting blood glucose checked every six months. It may be possible to detect the onset before symptoms appear. The first symptoms owners usually notice is weakness in the hind limbs, staring off into space, and weight loss. If diagnosis occurs early enough, surgery can be done to remove the tumors and part of the pancreas. The ferret could go on to live several more years with no additional medicine. If surgery is not an option, maintenance of the disease is possible through medication, diet and eating habits, and regular vet checkups. Prednisolone (prednisone) is the primary drug used to treat insulinoma, although it does not stop the tumors from growing. Over time, the dosage will need to be adjusted which is why it is important to get regular checkups and retest the fasting BG every 4 to 12 weeks. It is also a good idea to invest in a home BG monitor and calibrate it to your vets monitor. There are some side effects of prednisone, including the potential to cause ulcers and liver damage over time. The most immediate side effect is weight gain, commonly called "pred belly".
With proper treatment and dedicated ferrents, it is possible for ferrets with either disease to live several more quality years. The key is recognizing when your ferret is 'off' and seeking treatment. If you don't already have a vet experienced with these diseases, now is the time to find one.
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raebees
Junior Member
Raw Feeder
Yes, i am contagious. ๐๐
Posts: 219
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Post by raebees on Jan 22, 2017 13:08:53 GMT -5
DIET JOURNAL DAY 5
1/21 AM Quail - Offered parts today. Shouldn't have stopped because neither wanted to put much work in. Bella ate a wing, Moxie ate 1/4 of a spine. After chopping, 114g more was consumed, still looks like 1/4 of that was Moxie.
PM Chicken Thigh - I ended up chopping the thigh pretty fine and adding about 10g warm water before even Bella would eat any on her own. I was hesitant to use my fingers at all because she readily takes whatever's there, which means she should be hungry. Once it was a consistency she liked (squishy) she ate 27g before deciding she was done. I did not encourage her for more. Moxie fell asleep and had to be woken. I wonder if I had caught her just before she crawled in bed, if she would have eaten more. It took her a couple offerings and some salmon oil before she licked up a bit (yes, she got some chicken in there, too). She consumed about 13g overall. There's still a lot on the plate, I will weigh in the morning before the cat gets it. Update: no more was consumed overnight.
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raebees
Junior Member
Raw Feeder
Yes, i am contagious. ๐๐
Posts: 219
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Post by raebees on Jan 23, 2017 1:51:25 GMT -5
Geez, I almost forgot it's Sunday. I'll update weights and questionnaire tomorrow. I forgot to catch them before they ate dinner.
Mon AM - Quail & Beef PM - Beef & Chicken thigh Tues AM - Chicken neck (thigh) PM - Beef & Chicken thigh Wed AM - Chicken wing (thigh) PM - 1/2 chicken heart, 1/4 liver (chicken or beef), 1/4 spleen or kidney (pork) Thurs AM - Quail & Beef PM - Beef & ground Turkey Fri AM - Quail PM - 1/2 chicken heart, 1/4 liver (chicken or beef), 1/4 spleen or kidney (pork) Sat AM - Chicken neck (thigh) PM - Beef & Chicken thigh Sun AM - Quail & Beef PM - 1/2 chicken heart, 1/4 liver (chicken or beef), 1/4 spleen or kidney (pork)
The (thigh) in morning meals is if it appears they need more meat vs. bone. The turkey I have is ground with added Rosemary so I feed it once per week. I'm including beef with other tolerated proteins so they get familiar with it. Pork is off the menu until I can find a reliable source who can answer the saline question.
I have a duck. I'm not sure if the insides are still there but the head and feet are. I can probably get more duck, too. This week I may defrost it to portion out and start to include. Does it count as a red meat? When I get it defrosted, I'll post pictures.
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raebees
Junior Member
Raw Feeder
Yes, i am contagious. ๐๐
Posts: 219
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Post by raebees on Jan 23, 2017 1:59:19 GMT -5
And cause I have it...
DIET JOURNAL DAY 6
1/22 AM Quail - Since Bella wakes first and is always looking for breakfast, after part of a leg and spine, I tried offering her smallish chunks of quail. She tried one piece, stashed another and said "no". I chopped it a bit smaller but not to the consistency I normally do and she ate 50g by herself. I chopped some even finer for Moxie, and when she finally ate she consumed 30g! By herself! No booping needed today! After playtime, Bella finished what was left (30g) before taking a nap. Quail is by far the preferred protein. I'm thinking that I need to half the quail and include chicken or another protein to get them familiar and eager for anything else.
PM Organs (chicken liver) - Offered 170g, between the two they ate 105g. I'm interested in getting them to eat the organs separately so i can see just how much Moxie is eating. She spends longer at the plate and *seems* to eat more than Bella on organ nights. But Bella will go back to the plate overnight. I don't believe Moxie does.
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Post by Aftershock on Jan 23, 2017 13:36:49 GMT -5
Actually, Adrenal disease is caused from the overload in hormones that desexing too early causes, and poor lighting. (Yes, rarely genetically inclined. It is worse with mill ferrets) It goes Hypothalamus sends the signal to the pituitary, pituitary sends the signal to the adrenal glands and the gonads (testes or ovaries). The adrenal glands themselves produce a very small amount of sex hormones compared to the gonads. This means that when enough sex hormones are produced, everything can take a break. When the animal is desexed, a lower amount of sex hormones are produced, which is sensed by the Hypothalamus, and it relays to produce MORE. This means the adrenal glands are bombarded by 'WE NEED MORE SEX HORMONES' and it gets no break, and the demand for the sex hormones is STILL not met. So those poor adrenal glands are forced to produce enough. This is where the creation of tumors come in. More cells to produce more hormones are created, (these cells have abnormal growth and production (Pre-cancerous)) and often these cells OVER produce the hormone. These tumors CAN become malignant, but they are not until they invade other tissues. The Adrenal Disease Symptoms that we see in ferrets are caused by the hormones, not the โcancer.โ [When the tumors on the gland become malignant and invasion and metastasis happen, you are then dealing with malignant cancer, which is a more complicated problem.] There are three ways to treat Adrenal. Surgery, Lupron, and DES. Surgery is not a great option in my opinion. They take out the adrenal gland that has the most issue, but this surgery is VERY risky because the adrenal glands lie on very important blood vessels and the chance of bleeding out is VERY HIGH. Taking out one gland only temporarily stops the disease. This also sends the remaining gland into overdrive. Lupron is a monthly hormone injection, but doesn't seem to work as well as DES and also ends up more costly in the long run. (This could be because DES has a constant hormone release) DES is the most recommended because of how well it works. As treatment for adrenal, it is recommended to reimplant (these implants dissolve) every 6-9 months before symptoms begin to surface. Letting symptoms come back is letting the disease progress. DES as a preventative should be redone every 12 months. Insulinoma is when the diet of the ferret constantly spikes the blood glucose (BG) (and also rarely genetics). Think roller coaster. So the pancreas begins to form more cells to produce more insulin to control the spikes in BG. These cells often have abnormal growth and hormone production. (Sound familiar? ) This is what causes tumors. So, now that you have too much insulin being produced constantly. So, a ferret eats kibble (carbs), spikes the BG, the already high amount of insulin steals the glucose from the blood, and is STILL signaled to create MORE insulin. This is a crash. Raw food does not have the roller coaster, it (slowly) brings the BG up and keeps it as a constant vs crazy up and downs. Raw also signals the liver to convert some protein and fat into the exact amount of glucose they need with no excess. (Glucose is essential for brain function!) Oh my, this reply is extremely long. x.x Well, I hope you were eager for a lesson today! The amounts they are eating look great! How are you doing with not handfeeding them anymore? Yes, duck counts as a red meat. Hee hee, Cow actually takes longer to eat too, but she eats less than the boys. Totally normal. I've noticed it when I trim nails because she takes forever to lick off half the salmon oil compared to the boys.
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raebees
Junior Member
Raw Feeder
Yes, i am contagious. ๐๐
Posts: 219
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Post by raebees on Jan 24, 2017 2:32:02 GMT -5
โค Thank you for the info. I've been reading up on both since they're so common. My hope is the more I know, the easier it will be should it ever rear it's ugly head. I also learned the Insulinoma is the opposite of diabetes. One article referred to it as hypoglycemia. That helped understand the BG issues a bit better. I think that raw meat for them is like complex carbohydrates for us; they take longer to break down, therefore the glucose doesn't spike the BG like it would with simple carbs (kibble). Your lesson also reminded me about checking a few things with my vet (cost, ordering, supply, etc). I've been doing pretty good at not hand feeding. I have been using the appeal of hand feeding to get Moxie started, though. She still acts wary of the dish. I thought it might be a timing thing but she will play for a while, skirt right past my attempts to put her in front of the plate and choose bed over eating. Once I get her to sit still long enough to have a bite, she usually goes for more, from the plate, but getting that first bite takes a bit of coaxing. I'm tempted to leave her be but I'm usually gone for 8 hours or so. And since I'm gone, I won't be able to tell if she's eating any or if it's just piggy Bella.ย Speaking of, this evenings eatings blew my mind! DIET JOURNAL DAY 7 1/23 AM Quail & Beef - Bella ate part of a leg and consumed 55g quail & beef. Moxie consumed 19g with little persuasion. I have discovered she prefers food warm, if not room temperature. Cold foods are not well received. Today had ground beef, tomorrow I'll use beef muscle (different texture). PM Beef & Chicken thigh - 60g chick/30g beef/20g warm water ๐ฑ๐ฑ They ate it all! Moxie took a little warming up (booping and salmon oil) but she was still licking the empty plate! Round 2 60g chick/30g beef/15g water Would you believe they ate darn near all of round 2?? ๐ฑ๐ฑ๐ฎ๐ถ That's 6 bloody ounces of meat! Moxie had to have eaten 2 or more! I felt uncomfortable leaving an empty plate so there's 55g of pork (i actually hope they don't eat it!) (just before I climbed in bed, I heard Moxie come down to use the potty, then heard her licking the plate for a few seconds. I doubt she at any, but at least she's checking) Aaaaaaannnnddd I forgot to weigh them again. I have a bit more time tomorrow morning. I'll set my alarm with a 'weigh me' note. Gotta get the nails, too. This was yesterday's project. This was NOT my idea ๐๐ And this is Bella's 'feed me' face โค
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Post by Aftershock on Jan 24, 2017 16:02:15 GMT -5
You are so very welcome! I also want to get a BG monitor for home just to test occasionally to make sure. I recommend AlphaTrak. ^-^ When is your next day off? I'd like you to try not even booping once, and not even picking her up. Play with them and everything, but no moving her towards the food. It's super cool to watch them realize when they are hungry! Hee hee! I tollllld you they would eat more if they felt the need to! Don't forget to weigh them today! Bella's face when you tried to wake her up! She really IS looking MUCH better! She is still a big old chunky monkey, but her butt has gotten smaller! Also, I am DYING at the sweater! DYING!
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raebees
Junior Member
Raw Feeder
Yes, i am contagious. ๐๐
Posts: 219
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Post by raebees on Jan 24, 2017 17:02:53 GMT -5
๐๐ I'm going to have to make some sweaters for entertainment purposes. She's such a good sport about everything! She's still more sensitive than Moxie but both are just the sweetest, kissiest things! โค Moxie still wants to eat the cat, and when she gets a whiff of her in the area, she nonstop hunts for her. ๐ We save Ashy, though she's never grateful. I've started to really wonder how they would do with whole prey. I know they're not eating chunks, yet, but Moxie seems to have a high prey drive and Bella loves food.
1. Ferrets name: Moxie 2. Ferret's weight: 960g (โฌ) 3. Ferret has eaten "X" amount on average per meal.ย 1/2 to 1oz 4. Stools on various proteins. Almost always dark still, mostly formed now. Her litter habits are funny, she will enter the litter box 2 or 3 times before finally going. I don't treat after potty, only verbal praise, so it's not "faking". It seems like she either can't make up her mind or she's waiting for the "right" moment. 5. Activity levels:ย Very Active. She wakes last but is non stop when up. 6. Weekly Menu: See above โซ
1. Ferret's name: Bella 2. Ferret's weight: 1560g (โฌ) 3. Ferret has eaten "X" amount on average per meal.ย 2 to 4oz 4. Stools on various proteins. Generally ok, still working on the right amount of bone in. Poor girl gets a bum bath almost daily ๐ฏ 5. Activity levels: Good to fair, she plays well but takes more breaks than Moxie 6. Weekly Menu: See above โซ
I'm off Friday through Sunday so I'll start leaving Moxie to figure out the plate thing Friday. I would also like to stop chopping things so well. Should I try that this weekend, too? Or let Moxie work it out and THEN start including bigger pieces? Even Bella will walk away if it's not moist enough or has too big of pieces.
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Post by Aftershock on Jan 24, 2017 18:28:32 GMT -5
Hee hee, mine hop in and out numerous times from the litter box too ๐๐๐ Moxie seems to being doing great! ๐ No constipation for Bella any more, right? If you are ready to make the pieces bigger, go for it! ๐
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raebees
Junior Member
Raw Feeder
Yes, i am contagious. ๐๐
Posts: 219
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Post by raebees on Jan 25, 2017 2:27:40 GMT -5
No constipation again, thankfully. I've been a lot more cautious about quantity of bone. They had chicken necks this morning, diced and chopped, mixed with thigh. Bella has no problem with the bone, Moxie still spits out most pieces. I have to work early tomorrow so I'm off to bed. Quail in the morning, I'll see if I can't get Moxie to eat a bit more neck or wing than she's been wanting to.
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Post by Aftershock on Jan 26, 2017 11:41:52 GMT -5
Since you have been so fantastic at documenting how much they are actually eating, it is no longer a requirement but, I will still highly recommend it for your comfort. As a present for you being so awesome, I have a quiz for you! MINI QUIZ! You have run out of heart, how much taurine supplement should your ferrets get? (be specific) How can you tell if your ferret is getting too much or too little bone? What counts as a "different protein source?" Organs should consist of approximately how much liver, and how much "other" organ? Is it a good idea to mix muscle meat, bone in and organs all in one meal. Explain why.
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raebees
Junior Member
Raw Feeder
Yes, i am contagious. ๐๐
Posts: 219
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Post by raebees on Jan 26, 2017 12:23:55 GMT -5
Thank you! I've been needing something I CAN do (quiz). Being the strong parent is something I'm not good at (finger feeding) ๐ฌ but I've been trying! (darnit Moxie!)
I've realized that the food journal helps me vent as well as keep track of their food. I think I'll post it once a week still so you can see what I'm "thinking".
I have work. Again. There needs to be a facepalm emoji. ๐ I look forward to having the time to answer the quiz. ๐๐ Required schooling? Hate it. Voluntary learning? LOVE!!
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raebees
Junior Member
Raw Feeder
Yes, i am contagious. ๐๐
Posts: 219
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Post by raebees on Jan 27, 2017 2:43:39 GMT -5
Alright, imma answer the quiz tomorrow. Tonight snuck up on me. ๐ด๐ด
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Post by Aftershock on Jan 27, 2017 10:41:01 GMT -5
Hee hee! You're good!
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raebees
Junior Member
Raw Feeder
Yes, i am contagious. ๐๐
Posts: 219
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Post by raebees on Jan 28, 2017 1:27:28 GMT -5
My phone bricked. No clue why. Thank goodness for warranty cause it's a $700 phone. I'm picking up my new one tomorrow and will commence my lesson. had to jack the bf's phone and he wants it back
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