Post by Sherry on Jan 16, 2011 19:10:22 GMT -5
The entire thing has been copied/pasted from the original:
Ok, so I am starting a fresh thread and linking the previous ones here for a reference. I'll go through and pull the most important parts as I go too so that anyone who goes through this with their ferrets, or notices similar symptoms, can hopefully learn from what Koda and I have been through, and are about to go through...
Most Recent:
holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medicine&action=display&thread=5797&page=8
POOP Pictures:
holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medicine&action=display&thread=5902
Red, Swollen Anus
holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medicine&action=display&thread=5484
Excessive Urination/Defecation
holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medicine&action=display&thread=56766
Stinky Seedy Poops:
holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medicine&action=display&thread=5386
Diarrhea
holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medicine&action=display&thread=5299
Dry Nose
holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medicine&action=display&thread=5038
The Original Blockage/Surgery
holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medicine&action=display&thread=4914&page=14
Surgery
holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medicine&action=display&thread=4985
To Sum Up:
Koda has been showing signs of IBD for the last several months. His poops were/are very mucousy, and often black and tarry. Some poops seemed to have blood in them, some were very very small poops, some were diarrhea, most were strange colors and textures from mucousy, to runny, to seedy. He has had a few fevers (dry nose) and dehydration due to water loss from the runny poops. He has lost his appetite a few times. Every time I thought something might be wrong, it would get better...then come back. I finally decided on a beef allergy and removed all beef from the diet. His poop was still off, and since he was eating lighter meat, a lighter color - which let us notice the blood in his poop that we were not seeing before. He had been on a diet of strictly turkey for about 1-2 weeks at this point. At this point, we really became concerned. I was about to take a fecal sample in to check for parasites when his poops started looking better. A few days later, they began to look really bad again. Did a fecal sample - no parasites. Later, he was still looking bad and we noticed that he was losing weight so we finally took him to the vet. The vet did an exam and found no swelling of his glands, liver, or kidneys, said he looked well hydrated, alert, had a nice coat, and seemed really healthy. Until Koda pooped for her and she saw how yucky it was. The poop went off for a fecal sample, and he got a mouth swab for heliobacter. He had a bacterial infection (high gut load of bacteria), but no heliobacter and no parasites. He was prescribed the following meds:
Amoxycillin (antibiotics)
Metranidazole (antibiotic for anaerobic bacteria, and anti-parasitic)
Famotidine (Pepsid anti heart burn meds - human grade)
Pepto-Bismol
Carafate (tummy coater)
He is almost done with the Amoxy and Metranidazole - tonight is day 10 meaning the Metranidazole is done after today, and the Amoxy is almost gone so we have a few more days of that. Now we are on the search for what foods he can and can't have, and what causes flare ups of IBD and what helps them.
mustelidmusk
Holistic Ferret Mentor
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
« Reply #3 on Oct 2, 2010, 8:08pm »
Hi Katt,
Well, crap. (No pun intended). I was surfing for pet stores in your area that sell commercial raw....and I thought Denver was a "cow town"
Anyway, I was hoping you might be able to find the Stella and Chewy's lamb diet. It's a very simple recipe that contains all lamb meats and bones - no egg. Even though lamb is a rich food, it tends to very digestible, and it's highly nutritious. All of the IBD ferts I've worked with so far have done really well on the lamb - in fact it has been one of the "IBD favorites".
The reality is that the S&C lamb is cheaper than buying lamb from the grocery store because lamb is very strong tasting to the American palette, and only the blandest cuts make it to the super market. There's also a wool market for sheep. So, there are great meaty cuts of lamb available for pet foods. Colorado raises a lot of lamb, thus we see a lot of local lamb products for pets here.
Without the shipping, S&C lamb patties go for 5.00 per pound (includes the organs and bones too. I have a pound of lean ground beef in the fridge that' 5.99 per pound. Indeed, that's the "expensive beef", but if Koda needs to avoid all poultry, his diet will become a bit restricted.
If you do find a "yuppy pet store" (usually dog/cat stores), pleae let me know what brands they carry. write down the products and the prices. I can then look up the products/ingredients and let you know which seem best for Koda. Assuming it's not twice as expensive because it's in AK, it may be within budget as long as other foods can be cheaper.
So, let's try the pork. One of the issues with no chicken is that bones from larger animals can be too big unless you can get rabbit (now rabbit in Colorado can be found in some butcher stores, but it's about the price of the very best kobe beef from Japan ). You can try poultry necks other than chicken (smaller turkey necks may work, and the smaller percentage of non-chicken poultry meat in Koda's diet may be just different enough to be OK.)
I'm expecting that Koda may end up with a run of prednisone to quiet his system, but this is just my hunch. You probably alreay know this... but jut in case someone else who is newer to ferrets is reading.... If your vet does prescribe some pred. , be sure to verify that prednisolone (easier on the liver) is given rather than regular prednisone. There are a bunch of names for the various brands, but it seems that most vets prescribe pediapred.
Regarding figuring out how much Koda eats daily...this is just so we can price out the feeding options to see what might be work for you. If you do have a food scale, you can weight the food. Otherwise you can estimate how much he eats in a day by packing the food into a measuring cup.
Goat will be fine too.
One thing to keep in mind is that the inflammatory process will probably require the pred. to settle Koda's system down, and food change alone may only help avoid another flare-up.
-jennifer
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Well, bad news. I gave Koda some meats this morning, and saw dark in the bag. I thought it was just chicken hearts, but I think there was some beef in it... His poops were looking SO SO much better! And now, today. they look really bad again all of a sudden! I posted the pics in the poop thread...black, tarry, mucousy, and seedy! I am really afraid that his is kicking us back to square one...!
I got some pork tonight, and several frozen mice. What do you think would be best to start with? I can do f/t mice, but only for a certain period of time...I gave him a mouse tonight... Can I do say, one meat with a mouse a day still? Having that one whole prey seems to do a lot to help his poops. I know that would be starting with two proteins but...
I can order Stella and Chewey's Online, but since it is freeze dried, it won't keep him very hydrated (he doesn't drink much water) and that is bad IMO because with the runny poop he is already losing more water than he should be.
I wonder if I can continue the Metranidazole for another 10 days? It really did seem to be helping, but tonight is the last night of it technically...
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
« Reply #7 on Oct 3, 2010, 9:41am »
Ok, so I am starting a fresh thread and linking the previous ones here for a reference. I'll go through and pull the most important parts as I go too so that anyone who goes through this with their ferrets, or notices similar symptoms, can hopefully learn from what Koda and I have been through, and are about to go through...
Most Recent:
holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medicine&action=display&thread=5797&page=8
POOP Pictures:
holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medicine&action=display&thread=5902
Red, Swollen Anus
holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medicine&action=display&thread=5484
Excessive Urination/Defecation
holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medicine&action=display&thread=56766
Stinky Seedy Poops:
holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medicine&action=display&thread=5386
Diarrhea
holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medicine&action=display&thread=5299
Dry Nose
holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medicine&action=display&thread=5038
The Original Blockage/Surgery
holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medicine&action=display&thread=4914&page=14
Surgery
holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medicine&action=display&thread=4985
To Sum Up:
Koda has been showing signs of IBD for the last several months. His poops were/are very mucousy, and often black and tarry. Some poops seemed to have blood in them, some were very very small poops, some were diarrhea, most were strange colors and textures from mucousy, to runny, to seedy. He has had a few fevers (dry nose) and dehydration due to water loss from the runny poops. He has lost his appetite a few times. Every time I thought something might be wrong, it would get better...then come back. I finally decided on a beef allergy and removed all beef from the diet. His poop was still off, and since he was eating lighter meat, a lighter color - which let us notice the blood in his poop that we were not seeing before. He had been on a diet of strictly turkey for about 1-2 weeks at this point. At this point, we really became concerned. I was about to take a fecal sample in to check for parasites when his poops started looking better. A few days later, they began to look really bad again. Did a fecal sample - no parasites. Later, he was still looking bad and we noticed that he was losing weight so we finally took him to the vet. The vet did an exam and found no swelling of his glands, liver, or kidneys, said he looked well hydrated, alert, had a nice coat, and seemed really healthy. Until Koda pooped for her and she saw how yucky it was. The poop went off for a fecal sample, and he got a mouth swab for heliobacter. He had a bacterial infection (high gut load of bacteria), but no heliobacter and no parasites. He was prescribed the following meds:
Amoxycillin (antibiotics)
Metranidazole (antibiotic for anaerobic bacteria, and anti-parasitic)
Famotidine (Pepsid anti heart burn meds - human grade)
Pepto-Bismol
Carafate (tummy coater)
He is almost done with the Amoxy and Metranidazole - tonight is day 10 meaning the Metranidazole is done after today, and the Amoxy is almost gone so we have a few more days of that. Now we are on the search for what foods he can and can't have, and what causes flare ups of IBD and what helps them.
mustelidmusk
Holistic Ferret Mentor
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
« Reply #3 on Oct 2, 2010, 8:08pm »
Hi Katt,
Well, crap. (No pun intended). I was surfing for pet stores in your area that sell commercial raw....and I thought Denver was a "cow town"
Anyway, I was hoping you might be able to find the Stella and Chewy's lamb diet. It's a very simple recipe that contains all lamb meats and bones - no egg. Even though lamb is a rich food, it tends to very digestible, and it's highly nutritious. All of the IBD ferts I've worked with so far have done really well on the lamb - in fact it has been one of the "IBD favorites".
The reality is that the S&C lamb is cheaper than buying lamb from the grocery store because lamb is very strong tasting to the American palette, and only the blandest cuts make it to the super market. There's also a wool market for sheep. So, there are great meaty cuts of lamb available for pet foods. Colorado raises a lot of lamb, thus we see a lot of local lamb products for pets here.
Without the shipping, S&C lamb patties go for 5.00 per pound (includes the organs and bones too. I have a pound of lean ground beef in the fridge that' 5.99 per pound. Indeed, that's the "expensive beef", but if Koda needs to avoid all poultry, his diet will become a bit restricted.
If you do find a "yuppy pet store" (usually dog/cat stores), pleae let me know what brands they carry. write down the products and the prices. I can then look up the products/ingredients and let you know which seem best for Koda. Assuming it's not twice as expensive because it's in AK, it may be within budget as long as other foods can be cheaper.
So, let's try the pork. One of the issues with no chicken is that bones from larger animals can be too big unless you can get rabbit (now rabbit in Colorado can be found in some butcher stores, but it's about the price of the very best kobe beef from Japan ). You can try poultry necks other than chicken (smaller turkey necks may work, and the smaller percentage of non-chicken poultry meat in Koda's diet may be just different enough to be OK.)
I'm expecting that Koda may end up with a run of prednisone to quiet his system, but this is just my hunch. You probably alreay know this... but jut in case someone else who is newer to ferrets is reading.... If your vet does prescribe some pred. , be sure to verify that prednisolone (easier on the liver) is given rather than regular prednisone. There are a bunch of names for the various brands, but it seems that most vets prescribe pediapred.
Regarding figuring out how much Koda eats daily...this is just so we can price out the feeding options to see what might be work for you. If you do have a food scale, you can weight the food. Otherwise you can estimate how much he eats in a day by packing the food into a measuring cup.
Goat will be fine too.
One thing to keep in mind is that the inflammatory process will probably require the pred. to settle Koda's system down, and food change alone may only help avoid another flare-up.
-jennifer
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Well, bad news. I gave Koda some meats this morning, and saw dark in the bag. I thought it was just chicken hearts, but I think there was some beef in it... His poops were looking SO SO much better! And now, today. they look really bad again all of a sudden! I posted the pics in the poop thread...black, tarry, mucousy, and seedy! I am really afraid that his is kicking us back to square one...!
I got some pork tonight, and several frozen mice. What do you think would be best to start with? I can do f/t mice, but only for a certain period of time...I gave him a mouse tonight... Can I do say, one meat with a mouse a day still? Having that one whole prey seems to do a lot to help his poops. I know that would be starting with two proteins but...
I can order Stella and Chewey's Online, but since it is freeze dried, it won't keep him very hydrated (he doesn't drink much water) and that is bad IMO because with the runny poop he is already losing more water than he should be.
I wonder if I can continue the Metranidazole for another 10 days? It really did seem to be helping, but tonight is the last night of it technically...
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
« Reply #7 on Oct 3, 2010, 9:41am »
[Modify] [Delete]
I always rehydrate the freeze dried my guys get. Dried, while better than kibble, will lead to the same sort of dehydration.
mustelidmusk
Holistic Ferret Mentor
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
« Reply #8 on Oct 3, 2010, 10:24am »
I always rehydrate the freeze dried my guys get. Dried, while better than kibble, will lead to the same sort of dehydration.
mustelidmusk
Holistic Ferret Mentor
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
« Reply #8 on Oct 3, 2010, 10:24am »
[Modify] [Delete]
The Stella & Chewy's comes in both freeze-dried and frozen. you can rehydrate the freeze-dried. Freeze-dried i expensive, but if you have to ship, the cost may be less than shipping frozen. The point here is that some of these foods can work as occasional foods to help provide variety.
Here is a link to a place that has a lot of foods and supplements/probios, etc.
They do a LOT of business (so food is fresh I know. I shop there) . They stated out years ago as" mail order only", but locals could pick up their orders at the warehouse at certain times during the week. . If you look online, you can find coupons for Only Natural Pet Store as well.
This is nothing you need to worry about for now unless you've decided you can afford "importing" products longer term.
Anyway.....
Here are a few reminders to help you cope with all this stress...
I thought of thi one last night after I went to bed.
* Pepto bismol cause dark/black stool
Here is a quote taken directly from the FAQ page of www.petobismol.com....
The active ingredient in Pepto-Bismol contains bismuth. When a small amount of bismuth combines with trace amounts of sulfur in your saliva and gastrointestinal tract, a black-colored substance (bismuth sulfide) is formed. This discoloration is temporary and harmless. It can last several days after you stop taking Pepto-Bismol.
* carafacte - "....sucralfate also stimulates the increase of prostaglandin E2, epidermal growth factors (EGF, bFGF), and gastric mucus."
www.medic8.com/medicines/Carafate.html
* Koda probably also has antibiotic-related related loose sool from loss of good bacteria as well. His poops should improve a couple of days after getting off the meds. as well.
So, some of what you're seeing with Koda's poops right now is probably related to meds.
If any of the online ordering of foods works for you, here's the link to a place that hasquite a good selection of foods and probiotis, etc.
Here is the main thing we need to accomplish short-term.....we need to find a base food that you can afford, that's readily available, and that does not trash Koda's tummy. The pork looks like it may be a reasonable option , and we'll first try it with turkey neck for bone if you feel comfortable wiih this approach. I also recommend that you pick up some pro-biotics to start repopulating his tummy with good stuff once he's off the meds.
Plesae let me know if you have any concerns with this. We can work around things here and there, but we'll need to establish a good starting place and stick with a plan to see what works. I suggest that you keep a food/poop log. I doesn't need to be detailed. just write down what he eats and how he reacts.
It's key that you come up with a standard for classification so thinks like having a rough day do not influence the ratings as much:
I recommend keeping it SIMPLE sticking with the following rating system:
* Good (can be modified with "+" only (as in GOOD+ for extra good)
* Fair (cannot be modified with +/-)
* Bad (can be modified with "- " only (as in BAD - for extra bad)
Please remember that IBD babies never have great poops. SO "GOOD" will mean "Good for Koda". It will take a while for your rating system to become stable as you learn how Koda's system works.
Here's what you should log: Use a spread sheet for ease
date
food
fiber
supplement (like probios & brand)
meds.
Notes (for anything important like "IBD flare-up", "Koda at Shane's", week before finals or mommy stressed- limited play time. Shedding, etc.
The pumpkin can be fed raw as long as it's very finely chopped.
Parasites in pork? It's possible in any meat. Pork got a bad reputation for parasites (trichinosis) because, a long time ago before I was even hatched, pigs on the farm were fed garbage. The FDA prohibits this practice and inspections now monitor raising of livestock for human consumption. Again, there's risk with all raw meat. but more cases of salmonella have come from vegetables these days - so......as my favorite saying goes...."pick your poison". A lot of people n this site fed raw pork.
Do you have any of the following?:
Microwave?
small food processor?
large food processor?
blender?
kitchen/poultry shears?
This will give me an idea on what we may want to try for Koda. Sometimes "presentation" can be as important as what you're feeding.
Please let me know if this sounds like a "workable" plan for you and/or if you have any questions.
Thanks!
-jennifer
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
« Reply #9 on Oct 3, 2010, 1:18pm »
The Stella & Chewy's comes in both freeze-dried and frozen. you can rehydrate the freeze-dried. Freeze-dried i expensive, but if you have to ship, the cost may be less than shipping frozen. The point here is that some of these foods can work as occasional foods to help provide variety.
Here is a link to a place that has a lot of foods and supplements/probios, etc.
They do a LOT of business (so food is fresh I know. I shop there) . They stated out years ago as" mail order only", but locals could pick up their orders at the warehouse at certain times during the week. . If you look online, you can find coupons for Only Natural Pet Store as well.
This is nothing you need to worry about for now unless you've decided you can afford "importing" products longer term.
Anyway.....
Here are a few reminders to help you cope with all this stress...
I thought of thi one last night after I went to bed.
* Pepto bismol cause dark/black stool
Here is a quote taken directly from the FAQ page of www.petobismol.com....
The active ingredient in Pepto-Bismol contains bismuth. When a small amount of bismuth combines with trace amounts of sulfur in your saliva and gastrointestinal tract, a black-colored substance (bismuth sulfide) is formed. This discoloration is temporary and harmless. It can last several days after you stop taking Pepto-Bismol.
* carafacte - "....sucralfate also stimulates the increase of prostaglandin E2, epidermal growth factors (EGF, bFGF), and gastric mucus."
www.medic8.com/medicines/Carafate.html
* Koda probably also has antibiotic-related related loose sool from loss of good bacteria as well. His poops should improve a couple of days after getting off the meds. as well.
So, some of what you're seeing with Koda's poops right now is probably related to meds.
If any of the online ordering of foods works for you, here's the link to a place that hasquite a good selection of foods and probiotis, etc.
Here is the main thing we need to accomplish short-term.....we need to find a base food that you can afford, that's readily available, and that does not trash Koda's tummy. The pork looks like it may be a reasonable option , and we'll first try it with turkey neck for bone if you feel comfortable wiih this approach. I also recommend that you pick up some pro-biotics to start repopulating his tummy with good stuff once he's off the meds.
Plesae let me know if you have any concerns with this. We can work around things here and there, but we'll need to establish a good starting place and stick with a plan to see what works. I suggest that you keep a food/poop log. I doesn't need to be detailed. just write down what he eats and how he reacts.
It's key that you come up with a standard for classification so thinks like having a rough day do not influence the ratings as much:
I recommend keeping it SIMPLE sticking with the following rating system:
* Good (can be modified with "+" only (as in GOOD+ for extra good)
* Fair (cannot be modified with +/-)
* Bad (can be modified with "- " only (as in BAD - for extra bad)
Please remember that IBD babies never have great poops. SO "GOOD" will mean "Good for Koda". It will take a while for your rating system to become stable as you learn how Koda's system works.
Here's what you should log: Use a spread sheet for ease
date
food
fiber
supplement (like probios & brand)
meds.
Notes (for anything important like "IBD flare-up", "Koda at Shane's", week before finals or mommy stressed- limited play time. Shedding, etc.
The pumpkin can be fed raw as long as it's very finely chopped.
Parasites in pork? It's possible in any meat. Pork got a bad reputation for parasites (trichinosis) because, a long time ago before I was even hatched, pigs on the farm were fed garbage. The FDA prohibits this practice and inspections now monitor raising of livestock for human consumption. Again, there's risk with all raw meat. but more cases of salmonella have come from vegetables these days - so......as my favorite saying goes...."pick your poison". A lot of people n this site fed raw pork.
Do you have any of the following?:
Microwave?
small food processor?
large food processor?
blender?
kitchen/poultry shears?
This will give me an idea on what we may want to try for Koda. Sometimes "presentation" can be as important as what you're feeding.
Please let me know if this sounds like a "workable" plan for you and/or if you have any questions.
Thanks!
-jennifer
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
« Reply #9 on Oct 3, 2010, 1:18pm »
[Modify] [Delete]
If the dark poop was caused by the peptobismol wouldn't they have been dark earlier rather than all of a sudden? I mean he has been getting it regularly for 10 days now... that is a relief to know though! I'll definitely keep that in mind. I am not sure when to stop giving the peptobismol yet, but the vet gets in Tues/Wed so I will know then and I should be done with the amoxy by then too...
Microwave - check!
small food processor - Nope
large food processor - Nope
blender - check! (Magic Bullet blenders are the best things ever!)
kitchen/poultry shears - no But I have an ulu knife that I use to chop all of Koda's bones. It works very very well to chop through...well...anything! lol Definitely the best cutting invention ever made!
As for the pork, I have fed him pork before, but I just wondered if feeding mainly pork would increase his risk for parasites. I can get prok chops easily. So that's all good there, and I can get pork kidney, pork chitterlings, and pork uteries... haha I also THINK that the local oriental market has pork stomach...that is all I know of for pork organs, chicken organs are obviously the easiest to find. I have turkey necks in my freezer and can get more when I run out. So the pork and turkey necks sounds easy enough, though he won't be getting any organ meat... What about pumpkin? Should I be giving that starting today, and how much each day/meal?
Anyone know how long canned pumpkin stays good (in the fridge) after it is opened?
Heather
Administrator
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
« Reply #10 on Oct 3, 2010, 5:42pm »
If the dark poop was caused by the peptobismol wouldn't they have been dark earlier rather than all of a sudden? I mean he has been getting it regularly for 10 days now... that is a relief to know though! I'll definitely keep that in mind. I am not sure when to stop giving the peptobismol yet, but the vet gets in Tues/Wed so I will know then and I should be done with the amoxy by then too...
Microwave - check!
small food processor - Nope
large food processor - Nope
blender - check! (Magic Bullet blenders are the best things ever!)
kitchen/poultry shears - no But I have an ulu knife that I use to chop all of Koda's bones. It works very very well to chop through...well...anything! lol Definitely the best cutting invention ever made!
As for the pork, I have fed him pork before, but I just wondered if feeding mainly pork would increase his risk for parasites. I can get prok chops easily. So that's all good there, and I can get pork kidney, pork chitterlings, and pork uteries... haha I also THINK that the local oriental market has pork stomach...that is all I know of for pork organs, chicken organs are obviously the easiest to find. I have turkey necks in my freezer and can get more when I run out. So the pork and turkey necks sounds easy enough, though he won't be getting any organ meat... What about pumpkin? Should I be giving that starting today, and how much each day/meal?
Anyone know how long canned pumpkin stays good (in the fridge) after it is opened?
Heather
Administrator
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
« Reply #10 on Oct 3, 2010, 5:42pm »
[Modify] [Delete]
**Anyone know how long canned pumpkin stays good (in the fridge) after it is opened?**
When it gets furry No seriously, it doesn't take very long...that's how it goes bad. If you have whole pumpkin (raw stuff), I bake mine (cut it in half or if too large more pieces)...I find that it's not as easily digested if raw, so I cook mine. You may find your own solution to this.
Pork kidneys is an organ meat. Will he eat those? I find that I can get pork liver too, not as often as beef but I can get pork liver.
ciao
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
« Reply #11 on Oct 3, 2010, 6:01pm »
**Anyone know how long canned pumpkin stays good (in the fridge) after it is opened?**
When it gets furry No seriously, it doesn't take very long...that's how it goes bad. If you have whole pumpkin (raw stuff), I bake mine (cut it in half or if too large more pieces)...I find that it's not as easily digested if raw, so I cook mine. You may find your own solution to this.
Pork kidneys is an organ meat. Will he eat those? I find that I can get pork liver too, not as often as beef but I can get pork liver.
ciao
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
« Reply #11 on Oct 3, 2010, 6:01pm »
[Modify] [Delete]
I have never ever seen pork liver here. That does not mean that it doesn't exist in a store here somewhere though. lol I just know that he needs a variety of organs (per vet when he had his initial check up, and well, more variety is always better) and if he is allergic to beef and chicken (I REALLY hope not on the chicken!) then I don;t know how to get him that variety...
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Well I did get an ice cube tray for Koda, what if I froze canned-pumpkin cubes?
Heather
Administrator
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Seemingly pumpkin changes it's texture when frozen and doesn't mix or blend as well (I don't know this personally as I've never frozen it before, but this came up on another list I'm on). I would guess that the breakdown of the cell walls caused by freezing changes the texture and it's ability to retain liquid. I usually make muffins out of left over pumpkin. I know that if I mix the pumpkin in meat (I use it in my ground mix), I can freeze it with no loss of texture.
I find with the pork liver, it just shows up on the grocery shelves. It doesn't look much different than beef (firmer texture and slight colour difference), so if you don't read the tag, you won't know that it's not beef.
ciao
mustelidmusk
Holistic Ferret Mentor
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Since you don't have a food processor, t might be easiest to cook the pumpkin in the micro wave until it's soft. Put a SMALL amount of water rin a covered microwave dish with chunks of pumpkin (no seeds!. ) Then nuke the pumpkin until it's easily scraped away from the skin if the skin is tough. mash the pumpkin up with a fork ir potato masher and put it in the ice cube trays then store the cubes in ziplck baggies. This will be easier than trying to mince a bunch of pumpkin with a knife....that would take forever and be messy!!!!
I would start out adding about 10% pumpkin to Koda's diet to see if that helps. Do you feed Koda the pumpkin with chunks of meat?
Like Heather, I mix the fiber in with ground foods. If that seems to go well, I'd slowly increase the amount of pumpkin about 20 %. If the poop stops improving before you hit 20%, then don't increase the amount of pumpkin beyond that point.
I assume you will talk to the vet on Tues./wed.? What I'm really curious about is whether or not Koda gets some pred. The reason why I'm interested in the pred. is because , with IBD, ferrets improve a bit on antibiotics, but the antibiotics don't help with the inflammation. If Koda responds well to the pred., then the "diagnosis" will be IBD.
I expect we may find that Koda doesn't deal well with Chicken. It may be the kind of thing where He can deal with some smaller amounts of chicken when his tummy is doing well. Also, some ferrets can handle cornish game hen and turkey, but not regular chicken. Let's not worry about that just yet. I'm suspecting that Koda will probably have the "screamin' poops" until he gets some pred. I suspect his immune system is going bonkers on his gut
How does Koda do on raw egg?
I know a lot of ferrets have trouble with it. Has Koda been given any raw egg since he's started having tummy problems?
We'll find a way to get Koda some good variety. We may need to order some things in for him, but if we can get him on a couple of "base foods" that are cheaper, adding smaller amounts of the more expensive foods may work for you. If you use pork and beef as base foods, small amounts of other items (such as stella and chewy's lamb, smaller amounts of poultry (turkey, duck, pheasant, etc) can be rotated in with one of the base mixes here and there.
Again, it will take time to sort all this out.
-jennifer
I can find canned pumpkin at this time of year. Will that work as well as the microwaved pumpkin?
I can add some canned pumpkin tonight. He had a few, better poops tonight. Looked like relatively normal whole prey (which he had eaten yesterday) poop, but still really dark. I am just relieved that they were not tarry.
Quote:
I assume you will talk to the vet on Tues./wed.? What I'm really curious about is whether or not Koda gets some pred. The reason why I'm interested in the pred. is because , with IBD, ferrets improve a bit on antibiotics, but the antibiotics don't help with the inflammation. If Koda responds well to the pred., then the "diagnosis" will be IBD.
Yes she has a message to call me, and if I don't hear from her Tues, I will call her up Wed. I hope that we can get pred without having to get another check up...
Quote:
I expect we may find that Koda doesn't deal well with Chicken. It may be the kind of thing where He can deal with some smaller amounts of chicken when his tummy is doing well. Also, some ferrets can handle cornish game hen and turkey, but not regular chicken. Let's not worry about that just yet. I'm suspecting that Koda will probably have the "screamin' poops" until he gets some pred. I suspect his immune system is going bonkers on his gut
Ok, what is a "screamin' poop?" It does not sound good! Also, he has had chicken all of the time that he has been with me as the staple of his diet and done well on it up until he started getting sick...I REALLY hope that he is not sensitive to it as it is by far the cheapest, easiest meat to feed!!!!
Quote:
How does Koda do on raw egg?
I know a lot of ferrets have trouble with it. Has Koda been given any raw egg since he's started having tummy problems?
He will not eat raw egg. Unless I sneak it into his soupies, he absolutely refuses to eat it.
Quote:
We'll find a way to get Koda some good variety. We may need to order some things in for him, but if we can get him on a couple of "base foods" that are cheaper, adding smaller amounts of the more expensive foods may work for you. If you use pork and beef as base foods, small amounts of other items (such as stella and chewy's lamb, smaller amounts of poultry (turkey, duck, pheasant, etc) can be rotated in with one of the base mixes here and there.
The problem with that is that, I am 80% sure that he is sensitive to beef... I mean, I sure hope not! But it has see med to make his poops worse when he eats beef in the past. Much darker, and more tarry poops.
He got some pork today. Oh, and I keep forgetting to mention! I have been using Fish Oil in his meds. One capsule a day - he seems to like it even better than when I mix the ferretvite in with the meds. He seems to be doing okay with it, so can I keep that in his diet? Also, how much fish oil can he have in one day? Since he likes it so much, and it is healthier for him, I would rather use that to make his meds taste yummy instead of the sugary ferretvite, but I am not so sure that 3 capsules of fish oil a day is good! lol
mustelidmusk
Holistic Ferret Mentor
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Short term, just get the meds. into him.
longer term , a half a softgel i usually enough. A whole capsule probably won't hurt him. Some IBD is aggravated by fat/oils, so you may want to experiment. By the way fish oil has anti-inflammatory properties, so it is not an issue for IBD unless the gut is getting too much oil in general.
Is Koda getting any olive oil in his diet? if so, how much/how often???
Why does the stool turn black all of the sudden on the pepto? Not sure, but I know that it's related to the mix of sulfur and the bismuth (or whatever its called ) in the in the Pepto. So, this could involve the absorption of nutrients (improving), metabolic fluctuation, accumulation of the pepto in the system, etc. Also, a translucent "mucus stool" can look dark without there being blood in the tool.
I'm thinking your vet will prescribe pred. over the phone when she feel it's time to do so....she may want to try another antibiotic/combo first. But I suspect she'll be leaning toward pred. at this point.
BTW..If you had done the biopsy, you'd still be at the same stage in treatment at this point in time.
-jennifer
mustelidmusk
Holistic Ferret Mentor
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
I forgot to add that the "screamin' poops" is just my tacky terminology for a bad case of diarrhea .
Didn't mean to alarm you.
My sense of humor is very twisted.
-jennifer
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Have to jump in the shower and run to class, but just wanted to add: I gave him 1/3 cup chopped pork chop last night with one fish oil pill dripped over it. This morning he has eaten about 1/2 to 3/4 of the meat, so I will see how much is left when I get home from class. No canned pumpkin yet, I forgot to give that last night.
rarnold18
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
I know that in humans fish oil can have a blood thinning effect (I didn't know this until MIL had to go in for an angioplasty and was bleeding heavily for 12 hours after even with direct pressure...then one of then nurses that was tending to her was talking to her and fish oil came up) does this happen with ferrets?
Heather
Administrator
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Yes, it does. It's usually advised that stop feeding any supplements (as a number of them have blood thinning properties, vit e is another) at least a week before surgery and if it's an emergency surgery, then you notify the surgeon. When Mad Max went in for his emergency surgery, I brought in one of my healthy guys (Napoleon) for a just in case transfusion as he had fish oil just the day before. Some I gather are worse than others, and some fish oil mixes their oils with vit e.
ciao
bluemoose
HF Forum Junior Member
*******
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Oct 4, 2010, 1:31pm, Heather wrote:
Some I gather are worse than others, and some fish oil mixes their oils with vit e.
ciao
Is vitamin E a bad thing?
mustelidmusk
Holistic Ferret Mentor
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Vitamin E is not a bad thing.
Too much vitamin E is a bad thing. Like vitamin A, Vitamin E is is a fat-soluble vitamin. Fat-soluble vitamins are more difficult for the body to get rid of, so it's possible that over-consumption of a
fat-soluble vitamin can lead to toxicity.
toxicity is much more likely from synthetic/isolated vitamins than from natural source vitamins that come from whole foods, which are balanced. Whole foods provide vitamins and minerals in natural combinations that animals have evolved to eat. As such, animals can best utilize nutrition from natural whole foods. Toxicity is much less likely when vitamins and nutrients are provided via natural, complete food sources.
-jennifer
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Should I mix some in? I would rather not supplement Vitamin E for him...?
He finished off the 1/3 cup pork today (no bone), and killed a small mousie but has not eaten it yet. He is sleeping a lot, but it seems like that is just because he is bored (school is busy ) because when he is awake and when we play he is still active and normal...
Heather
Administrator
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Don't supplement if you don't need to. You need to find out what stabilizes him. Vit e has a purpose but hold off, if you keep adding different things at this rate, you're not going to know what works and what doesn't. He's going to be coming off the meds, that in itself is going to stress him, so all you can aim for right now is to keep him on the level. He may perk up once he's off the meds too. Ferrets do seem to sleep more when they're bored or caged more.
ciao
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Well Koda finished his meat (1/3 cup pork chops, 1 mouse) yesterday and last night I gave him 1/3 cup pork chops and a 4" section of turkey neck. He has eaten most of the pork but none of the turkey. I might give him another mouse today too.
Heather
Administrator
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
How's the stools been?
ciao
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Well he had one today and it was mucousy, dark, and seedy all in one. Formed, but just barely... He finished up the antibiotics today, and is still taking the carafate, famotidine, and pepto. No word from the vet, I will probably give her a call tomorrow.
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Tonight's poop...
Very liquidy with seedy texture too.
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
I gave him more pork tonight, no fish oil, and 1/4 tsp pumpkin.
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
As hard as it sounds, for an IBD stool, that's not bad. I agree it could be better but his body isn't totally rejecting the protein source. He's having problems digesting the fat. He ate the mouse, then? It appears to be some skin and hair from a mouse in that sample. I find that my guys have a more mucousy stool with mice, but don't seem to necessarily suffer any ill effects.
ciao
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
« Reply #31 on Oct 6, 2010, 9:32pm »
I have never ever seen pork liver here. That does not mean that it doesn't exist in a store here somewhere though. lol I just know that he needs a variety of organs (per vet when he had his initial check up, and well, more variety is always better) and if he is allergic to beef and chicken (I REALLY hope not on the chicken!) then I don;t know how to get him that variety...
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Well I did get an ice cube tray for Koda, what if I froze canned-pumpkin cubes?
Heather
Administrator
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Seemingly pumpkin changes it's texture when frozen and doesn't mix or blend as well (I don't know this personally as I've never frozen it before, but this came up on another list I'm on). I would guess that the breakdown of the cell walls caused by freezing changes the texture and it's ability to retain liquid. I usually make muffins out of left over pumpkin. I know that if I mix the pumpkin in meat (I use it in my ground mix), I can freeze it with no loss of texture.
I find with the pork liver, it just shows up on the grocery shelves. It doesn't look much different than beef (firmer texture and slight colour difference), so if you don't read the tag, you won't know that it's not beef.
ciao
mustelidmusk
Holistic Ferret Mentor
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Since you don't have a food processor, t might be easiest to cook the pumpkin in the micro wave until it's soft. Put a SMALL amount of water rin a covered microwave dish with chunks of pumpkin (no seeds!. ) Then nuke the pumpkin until it's easily scraped away from the skin if the skin is tough. mash the pumpkin up with a fork ir potato masher and put it in the ice cube trays then store the cubes in ziplck baggies. This will be easier than trying to mince a bunch of pumpkin with a knife....that would take forever and be messy!!!!
I would start out adding about 10% pumpkin to Koda's diet to see if that helps. Do you feed Koda the pumpkin with chunks of meat?
Like Heather, I mix the fiber in with ground foods. If that seems to go well, I'd slowly increase the amount of pumpkin about 20 %. If the poop stops improving before you hit 20%, then don't increase the amount of pumpkin beyond that point.
I assume you will talk to the vet on Tues./wed.? What I'm really curious about is whether or not Koda gets some pred. The reason why I'm interested in the pred. is because , with IBD, ferrets improve a bit on antibiotics, but the antibiotics don't help with the inflammation. If Koda responds well to the pred., then the "diagnosis" will be IBD.
I expect we may find that Koda doesn't deal well with Chicken. It may be the kind of thing where He can deal with some smaller amounts of chicken when his tummy is doing well. Also, some ferrets can handle cornish game hen and turkey, but not regular chicken. Let's not worry about that just yet. I'm suspecting that Koda will probably have the "screamin' poops" until he gets some pred. I suspect his immune system is going bonkers on his gut
How does Koda do on raw egg?
I know a lot of ferrets have trouble with it. Has Koda been given any raw egg since he's started having tummy problems?
We'll find a way to get Koda some good variety. We may need to order some things in for him, but if we can get him on a couple of "base foods" that are cheaper, adding smaller amounts of the more expensive foods may work for you. If you use pork and beef as base foods, small amounts of other items (such as stella and chewy's lamb, smaller amounts of poultry (turkey, duck, pheasant, etc) can be rotated in with one of the base mixes here and there.
Again, it will take time to sort all this out.
-jennifer
I can find canned pumpkin at this time of year. Will that work as well as the microwaved pumpkin?
I can add some canned pumpkin tonight. He had a few, better poops tonight. Looked like relatively normal whole prey (which he had eaten yesterday) poop, but still really dark. I am just relieved that they were not tarry.
Quote:
I assume you will talk to the vet on Tues./wed.? What I'm really curious about is whether or not Koda gets some pred. The reason why I'm interested in the pred. is because , with IBD, ferrets improve a bit on antibiotics, but the antibiotics don't help with the inflammation. If Koda responds well to the pred., then the "diagnosis" will be IBD.
Yes she has a message to call me, and if I don't hear from her Tues, I will call her up Wed. I hope that we can get pred without having to get another check up...
Quote:
I expect we may find that Koda doesn't deal well with Chicken. It may be the kind of thing where He can deal with some smaller amounts of chicken when his tummy is doing well. Also, some ferrets can handle cornish game hen and turkey, but not regular chicken. Let's not worry about that just yet. I'm suspecting that Koda will probably have the "screamin' poops" until he gets some pred. I suspect his immune system is going bonkers on his gut
Ok, what is a "screamin' poop?" It does not sound good! Also, he has had chicken all of the time that he has been with me as the staple of his diet and done well on it up until he started getting sick...I REALLY hope that he is not sensitive to it as it is by far the cheapest, easiest meat to feed!!!!
Quote:
How does Koda do on raw egg?
I know a lot of ferrets have trouble with it. Has Koda been given any raw egg since he's started having tummy problems?
He will not eat raw egg. Unless I sneak it into his soupies, he absolutely refuses to eat it.
Quote:
We'll find a way to get Koda some good variety. We may need to order some things in for him, but if we can get him on a couple of "base foods" that are cheaper, adding smaller amounts of the more expensive foods may work for you. If you use pork and beef as base foods, small amounts of other items (such as stella and chewy's lamb, smaller amounts of poultry (turkey, duck, pheasant, etc) can be rotated in with one of the base mixes here and there.
The problem with that is that, I am 80% sure that he is sensitive to beef... I mean, I sure hope not! But it has see med to make his poops worse when he eats beef in the past. Much darker, and more tarry poops.
He got some pork today. Oh, and I keep forgetting to mention! I have been using Fish Oil in his meds. One capsule a day - he seems to like it even better than when I mix the ferretvite in with the meds. He seems to be doing okay with it, so can I keep that in his diet? Also, how much fish oil can he have in one day? Since he likes it so much, and it is healthier for him, I would rather use that to make his meds taste yummy instead of the sugary ferretvite, but I am not so sure that 3 capsules of fish oil a day is good! lol
mustelidmusk
Holistic Ferret Mentor
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Short term, just get the meds. into him.
longer term , a half a softgel i usually enough. A whole capsule probably won't hurt him. Some IBD is aggravated by fat/oils, so you may want to experiment. By the way fish oil has anti-inflammatory properties, so it is not an issue for IBD unless the gut is getting too much oil in general.
Is Koda getting any olive oil in his diet? if so, how much/how often???
Why does the stool turn black all of the sudden on the pepto? Not sure, but I know that it's related to the mix of sulfur and the bismuth (or whatever its called ) in the in the Pepto. So, this could involve the absorption of nutrients (improving), metabolic fluctuation, accumulation of the pepto in the system, etc. Also, a translucent "mucus stool" can look dark without there being blood in the tool.
I'm thinking your vet will prescribe pred. over the phone when she feel it's time to do so....she may want to try another antibiotic/combo first. But I suspect she'll be leaning toward pred. at this point.
BTW..If you had done the biopsy, you'd still be at the same stage in treatment at this point in time.
-jennifer
mustelidmusk
Holistic Ferret Mentor
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
I forgot to add that the "screamin' poops" is just my tacky terminology for a bad case of diarrhea .
Didn't mean to alarm you.
My sense of humor is very twisted.
-jennifer
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Have to jump in the shower and run to class, but just wanted to add: I gave him 1/3 cup chopped pork chop last night with one fish oil pill dripped over it. This morning he has eaten about 1/2 to 3/4 of the meat, so I will see how much is left when I get home from class. No canned pumpkin yet, I forgot to give that last night.
rarnold18
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
I know that in humans fish oil can have a blood thinning effect (I didn't know this until MIL had to go in for an angioplasty and was bleeding heavily for 12 hours after even with direct pressure...then one of then nurses that was tending to her was talking to her and fish oil came up) does this happen with ferrets?
Heather
Administrator
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Yes, it does. It's usually advised that stop feeding any supplements (as a number of them have blood thinning properties, vit e is another) at least a week before surgery and if it's an emergency surgery, then you notify the surgeon. When Mad Max went in for his emergency surgery, I brought in one of my healthy guys (Napoleon) for a just in case transfusion as he had fish oil just the day before. Some I gather are worse than others, and some fish oil mixes their oils with vit e.
ciao
bluemoose
HF Forum Junior Member
*******
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Oct 4, 2010, 1:31pm, Heather wrote:
Some I gather are worse than others, and some fish oil mixes their oils with vit e.
ciao
Is vitamin E a bad thing?
mustelidmusk
Holistic Ferret Mentor
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Vitamin E is not a bad thing.
Too much vitamin E is a bad thing. Like vitamin A, Vitamin E is is a fat-soluble vitamin. Fat-soluble vitamins are more difficult for the body to get rid of, so it's possible that over-consumption of a
fat-soluble vitamin can lead to toxicity.
toxicity is much more likely from synthetic/isolated vitamins than from natural source vitamins that come from whole foods, which are balanced. Whole foods provide vitamins and minerals in natural combinations that animals have evolved to eat. As such, animals can best utilize nutrition from natural whole foods. Toxicity is much less likely when vitamins and nutrients are provided via natural, complete food sources.
-jennifer
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Should I mix some in? I would rather not supplement Vitamin E for him...?
He finished off the 1/3 cup pork today (no bone), and killed a small mousie but has not eaten it yet. He is sleeping a lot, but it seems like that is just because he is bored (school is busy ) because when he is awake and when we play he is still active and normal...
Heather
Administrator
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Don't supplement if you don't need to. You need to find out what stabilizes him. Vit e has a purpose but hold off, if you keep adding different things at this rate, you're not going to know what works and what doesn't. He's going to be coming off the meds, that in itself is going to stress him, so all you can aim for right now is to keep him on the level. He may perk up once he's off the meds too. Ferrets do seem to sleep more when they're bored or caged more.
ciao
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Well Koda finished his meat (1/3 cup pork chops, 1 mouse) yesterday and last night I gave him 1/3 cup pork chops and a 4" section of turkey neck. He has eaten most of the pork but none of the turkey. I might give him another mouse today too.
Heather
Administrator
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
How's the stools been?
ciao
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Well he had one today and it was mucousy, dark, and seedy all in one. Formed, but just barely... He finished up the antibiotics today, and is still taking the carafate, famotidine, and pepto. No word from the vet, I will probably give her a call tomorrow.
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Tonight's poop...
Very liquidy with seedy texture too.
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
I gave him more pork tonight, no fish oil, and 1/4 tsp pumpkin.
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
As hard as it sounds, for an IBD stool, that's not bad. I agree it could be better but his body isn't totally rejecting the protein source. He's having problems digesting the fat. He ate the mouse, then? It appears to be some skin and hair from a mouse in that sample. I find that my guys have a more mucousy stool with mice, but don't seem to necessarily suffer any ill effects.
ciao
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
« Reply #31 on Oct 6, 2010, 9:32pm »
[Modify] [Delete]
Well he had mainly pork, I gave him a mouse before bedtime (my bedtime) and tat poop was late afternoon/early evening the next day. the mouse was gone in the morning and I gave him more pork so that poop was mainly pork, but possibly part mouse... I don't know in other words. haha
The vet just called a bit ago. She said that I can taper off his other meds (Famotidine, Petptobismol, and carafate) to 2x a day, then once a day, then every other day, and see how he does. And that if he gets worse again, to move back up, stabilize him, then try to decrease again. Before she gives Pred, she wants to have blood work to check on everything else. she says that pred changes the body chemistry so it is important to check things Before giving him the pred...that costs about $125 so we are going to hold off for now.
So for now, the plan is to wean off of the other meds, and then work with his diet... I added another breeding group to my mice, so hopefully when they get up and running he can have more whole prey...
Oh, and she also said that pumpkin is a stool softener so that perhaps (since he has soft, liquidy stools) I should not give that to him?
mustelidmusk
Holistic Ferret Mentor
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
« Reply #32 on Oct 6, 2010, 9:45pm »
Well he had mainly pork, I gave him a mouse before bedtime (my bedtime) and tat poop was late afternoon/early evening the next day. the mouse was gone in the morning and I gave him more pork so that poop was mainly pork, but possibly part mouse... I don't know in other words. haha
The vet just called a bit ago. She said that I can taper off his other meds (Famotidine, Petptobismol, and carafate) to 2x a day, then once a day, then every other day, and see how he does. And that if he gets worse again, to move back up, stabilize him, then try to decrease again. Before she gives Pred, she wants to have blood work to check on everything else. she says that pred changes the body chemistry so it is important to check things Before giving him the pred...that costs about $125 so we are going to hold off for now.
So for now, the plan is to wean off of the other meds, and then work with his diet... I added another breeding group to my mice, so hopefully when they get up and running he can have more whole prey...
Oh, and she also said that pumpkin is a stool softener so that perhaps (since he has soft, liquidy stools) I should not give that to him?
mustelidmusk
Holistic Ferret Mentor
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
« Reply #32 on Oct 6, 2010, 9:45pm »
[Modify] [Delete]
Only a very few kibble-fed ferrets have the kinds of stools that can be "swapped out" candy box without notice
Seriously, a small bit of the brown-orange-ish liquid is not at all uncommon for a raw fed ferret. My kids get some seedy poops with that liquid here and there. Not all the time, but I do see it sometimes. I watch to see if it goes away. Ferts get "stress poops". I would not look at that poop picture and immediately think "IBD".
Anyway, I would add a little more fiber (pumpkin) - not a whole lot more....just increase it by a little bit for a few days to see what happens.
Did you get in touch with the vet? Any feedback?
I hesitate to remove all poultry since it's the most available form of bone for ferrets. If we can stabilize koda on this quality of stool with the turkey necks for bone and a handful of other different meats, that would be a good thing. We can look at some supplements (enzyme and pro-bios) that will help with absorption.
for now, stick with the current plan until we hear from the vet.
I'd like to see what happens with reduced poultry and pork/mice only once Koda is off the anti-biotics (and possibly on pred).
-jennifer
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Oct 6, 2010, 9:45pm, mustelidmusk wrote:
Only a very few kibble-fed ferrets have the kinds of stools that can be "swapped out" candy box without notice
Seriously, a small bit of the brown-orange-ish liquid is not at all uncommon for a raw fed ferret. My kids get some seedy poops with that liquid here and there. Not all the time, but I do see it sometimes. I watch to see if it goes away. Ferts get "stress poops". I would not look at that poop picture and immediately think "IBD".
Anyway, I would add a little more fiber (pumpkin) - not a whole lot more....just increase it by a little bit for a few days to see what happens.
Did you get in touch with the vet? Any feedback?
I hesitate to remove all poultry since it's the most available form of bone for ferrets. If we can stabilize koda on this quality of stool with the turkey necks for bone and a handful of other different meats, that would be a good thing. We can look at some supplements (enzyme and pro-bios) that will help with absorption.
for now, stick with the current plan until we hear from the vet.
I'd like to see what happens with reduced poultry and pork/mice only once Koda is off the anti-biotics (and possibly on pred).
-jennifer
In my above post I added the vet update...
With that in mind...
Pumpkin? Yay nay?
Probios? Where can I order them there are none in town except Marshall's...though there is a holistic store here I want to check out too as they have a pet section I am told...
Heather
Administrator
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Sometimes this site is so frustrating....just lost my post...again
I would stick with the pumpkin (just my thoughts on it). Pumpkin is one of those miracle veggies. It does indeed soften stools, but it also absorbs moisture when the need arises. I might consider adding less pumpkin when I was feeding prey and more when I'm feeding frankenprey, as the pumpkin is offering properties that are needed in the frankenprey. Just a thought
ciao
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Oct 7, 2010, 11:42am, Heather wrote:
Sometimes this site is so frustrating....just lost my post...again
I would stick with the pumpkin (just my thoughts on it). Pumpkin is one of those miracle veggies. It does indeed soften stools, but it also absorbs moisture when the need arises. I might consider adding less pumpkin when I was feeding prey and more when I'm feeding frankenprey, as the pumpkin is offering properties that are needed in the frankenprey. Just a thought
ciao
Ok, thanks Heather. I have been trying to offer at least one prey item a day because it makes a HUGE difference. With that in mind, should I still offer pumpkin those days, with his non-prey meals, or only give it on days that he does not get a whole prey?
sherrylynne
Administrator
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
I'd be tempted to give a bit with the non-prey meals. It's quite likely the non-digestibles that are helping with the stool when he has the whole prey.
mustelidmusk
Holistic Ferret Mentor
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Honestly, I prefer finely chopped white mushrooms that are cooked a (I chop them finley then nuke them until they hot all the way through. Since liquid seems to be a problem, mushroom would probably work better than pumpkin. Pumpkin is "the great equalizer" It can be used to soften hard stool or provide bulk for loose stool. but the bottom line is that pumpkin will always produce a softer/mushier stool with some liquid.You can try a pumpkin with some mushrooms mixed isn to transition over if you want to.
Here is a good read on finding a good pro-bio. product:
www.wholeapproach.com/newsletter/archives/2003/07_July.html
(Not as easy as it seems )
Yes, if Koda does not have baseline blood work, he should be base-lined before getting pred. I figured had probably already had baseline work done. I missed your post the other day because I started my post before yours got out there The brats started raising h*ll upstairs, so I was rudely interrupted by their antics!
-jennifer
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Ok so Koda's poop today was, well bad all over again. I feel like we backslid a little. The last few days he has been caged more while I crammed madly for my BioChem test....that turned out to be next week! (yaaay!) Anyways, it was small and dark and slimy. Last 2 days he only got pork and turkey neck (ate very little turkey neck...I have to chop it to bits to even get his notice ). I gave him a live mouse (and more attention!) today, and his newest poop is much much better. I also gave him a little pepto last night (have not been giving meds the last 2-3 days) and just gave him a round of carafate and pepto. No famotidine. We will see what tomorrow brings. I am going to try to get to the oriental store today to get some pork kidney. When can I start trying out new meats? I want him to get his variety...
mustelidmusk
Holistic Ferret Mentor
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
He is off the antibiotics. I would keep him on the porkfor at least another week to see what happens. A month on single source food is not enough to create an issue. In fact, you may want to try the rest of this week without the turkey to see what happens.
You'll be relying on mouse only, and he'll not be eating bone for a week, but many ferrets go without bone for more than a week and or single source protein when they're switching.
Another thing you may want to try is slippery elm bark instead of the pepto and/or carafate when you're ready. It does coat the tummy like pepto. Anything that coats the tummy inhibits absorption. Some ferrets do better with the something very soothing about the slippery elm rather than the pepto.. There's something soothing /anti-inflammatory with the slippery elm for some ferts.
As far as carafate goes, it works differently that than the pepto/slippery elm bark. It works more like a band-aid that sticks to any ulcers forming a coating that protects the ulcers from stomach acids.
If the poops do not improve/stabilize by the end of the week after stopping the antibiotics, I'd be calling the vet. I can't remember if Koda had the blood draw for his baseline. If he has, you will probably have the results by then, and your vet may prescribe pred over the phone.
One or two more weeks (even one with NO turkey/bone) will not hurt Koda, and you may see improvement.
If Koda has issues with all poultry, you may need to feed bone meal - at least short term - to figure out if the improvement/stabilization is associated with poultry. Yes, this is a major pain-in-the-butt!
But once we figure out what's going on, things will become more routine.
-jennifer
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
He has not had baseline blood work done yet. I'm saving up, getting him health insurance, then doing that and a microchip at some point. I can do no turkey that is easier for me lol I hadn't given him his micies either the lastfew days his poop after the mouse last night was better- a lot better. A little green in it but nothing too bad mostly normal colored, nice and firm but a bit skinny...what does the green mean? Also I'd like to start the multivitamins soon. You gave me a bunch of links but which would you recommend? I was leaning towards Thorne Research bc my vet has heard of them at least...
Heather
Administrator
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Don't bother with the insurance...it's a scam if they will even take him. He has a pre existing problem...IBD. They won't cover anything. We've had this discussion on a number of lists, this one included if I remember correctly. It was decided that your money was better spent if you created an account that earned interest and put your money into that. I've heard of too many reports of promised pay off's and when people go to collect the company has some fine print BS that tells why they cannot cover the problem. My mother spent a fortune on insurance, they covered the odd medical bill, until the dog had to have dental work done. The claim was refused because she had a bishon and they are known to have dental issues (this is true) so it wasn't covered. After that any time there was a health issue, they made reference to the dental problem. They wouldn't cover a rash because it could be related to her deteriorating teeth. You get the picture It's just the way it works....put the money aside that you would pay in premiums and just use that to cover Koda's expenses. You will save yourself the heartache of lining an already rich company with your hard earned money .
The green sometimes means that the food travelled a bit too fast. With an IBD fert that's standard issue It can also mean that he's having some tummy cramping (at least I know that's what it meant with Ghenghis). Think about cholic in babies
I really can't help you with the whole multi thing (I just don't use them) Take a close look at the non-medical ingredients. These are the things that I find often cause issues. There are often some really disgusting fillers, that can cause issues...petrochemicals, soya (really bad for Koda), dairy products (I never could figure out the why for this one)....just read very carefully. You (because of your education) will be better equiped to understand what a lot of the multi additives are.
ciao
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
« Reply #42 on Oct 17, 2010, 4:49pm »
Only a very few kibble-fed ferrets have the kinds of stools that can be "swapped out" candy box without notice
Seriously, a small bit of the brown-orange-ish liquid is not at all uncommon for a raw fed ferret. My kids get some seedy poops with that liquid here and there. Not all the time, but I do see it sometimes. I watch to see if it goes away. Ferts get "stress poops". I would not look at that poop picture and immediately think "IBD".
Anyway, I would add a little more fiber (pumpkin) - not a whole lot more....just increase it by a little bit for a few days to see what happens.
Did you get in touch with the vet? Any feedback?
I hesitate to remove all poultry since it's the most available form of bone for ferrets. If we can stabilize koda on this quality of stool with the turkey necks for bone and a handful of other different meats, that would be a good thing. We can look at some supplements (enzyme and pro-bios) that will help with absorption.
for now, stick with the current plan until we hear from the vet.
I'd like to see what happens with reduced poultry and pork/mice only once Koda is off the anti-biotics (and possibly on pred).
-jennifer
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Oct 6, 2010, 9:45pm, mustelidmusk wrote:
Only a very few kibble-fed ferrets have the kinds of stools that can be "swapped out" candy box without notice
Seriously, a small bit of the brown-orange-ish liquid is not at all uncommon for a raw fed ferret. My kids get some seedy poops with that liquid here and there. Not all the time, but I do see it sometimes. I watch to see if it goes away. Ferts get "stress poops". I would not look at that poop picture and immediately think "IBD".
Anyway, I would add a little more fiber (pumpkin) - not a whole lot more....just increase it by a little bit for a few days to see what happens.
Did you get in touch with the vet? Any feedback?
I hesitate to remove all poultry since it's the most available form of bone for ferrets. If we can stabilize koda on this quality of stool with the turkey necks for bone and a handful of other different meats, that would be a good thing. We can look at some supplements (enzyme and pro-bios) that will help with absorption.
for now, stick with the current plan until we hear from the vet.
I'd like to see what happens with reduced poultry and pork/mice only once Koda is off the anti-biotics (and possibly on pred).
-jennifer
In my above post I added the vet update...
With that in mind...
Pumpkin? Yay nay?
Probios? Where can I order them there are none in town except Marshall's...though there is a holistic store here I want to check out too as they have a pet section I am told...
Heather
Administrator
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Sometimes this site is so frustrating....just lost my post...again
I would stick with the pumpkin (just my thoughts on it). Pumpkin is one of those miracle veggies. It does indeed soften stools, but it also absorbs moisture when the need arises. I might consider adding less pumpkin when I was feeding prey and more when I'm feeding frankenprey, as the pumpkin is offering properties that are needed in the frankenprey. Just a thought
ciao
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Oct 7, 2010, 11:42am, Heather wrote:
Sometimes this site is so frustrating....just lost my post...again
I would stick with the pumpkin (just my thoughts on it). Pumpkin is one of those miracle veggies. It does indeed soften stools, but it also absorbs moisture when the need arises. I might consider adding less pumpkin when I was feeding prey and more when I'm feeding frankenprey, as the pumpkin is offering properties that are needed in the frankenprey. Just a thought
ciao
Ok, thanks Heather. I have been trying to offer at least one prey item a day because it makes a HUGE difference. With that in mind, should I still offer pumpkin those days, with his non-prey meals, or only give it on days that he does not get a whole prey?
sherrylynne
Administrator
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
I'd be tempted to give a bit with the non-prey meals. It's quite likely the non-digestibles that are helping with the stool when he has the whole prey.
mustelidmusk
Holistic Ferret Mentor
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Honestly, I prefer finely chopped white mushrooms that are cooked a (I chop them finley then nuke them until they hot all the way through. Since liquid seems to be a problem, mushroom would probably work better than pumpkin. Pumpkin is "the great equalizer" It can be used to soften hard stool or provide bulk for loose stool. but the bottom line is that pumpkin will always produce a softer/mushier stool with some liquid.You can try a pumpkin with some mushrooms mixed isn to transition over if you want to.
Here is a good read on finding a good pro-bio. product:
www.wholeapproach.com/newsletter/archives/2003/07_July.html
(Not as easy as it seems )
Yes, if Koda does not have baseline blood work, he should be base-lined before getting pred. I figured had probably already had baseline work done. I missed your post the other day because I started my post before yours got out there The brats started raising h*ll upstairs, so I was rudely interrupted by their antics!
-jennifer
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Ok so Koda's poop today was, well bad all over again. I feel like we backslid a little. The last few days he has been caged more while I crammed madly for my BioChem test....that turned out to be next week! (yaaay!) Anyways, it was small and dark and slimy. Last 2 days he only got pork and turkey neck (ate very little turkey neck...I have to chop it to bits to even get his notice ). I gave him a live mouse (and more attention!) today, and his newest poop is much much better. I also gave him a little pepto last night (have not been giving meds the last 2-3 days) and just gave him a round of carafate and pepto. No famotidine. We will see what tomorrow brings. I am going to try to get to the oriental store today to get some pork kidney. When can I start trying out new meats? I want him to get his variety...
mustelidmusk
Holistic Ferret Mentor
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
He is off the antibiotics. I would keep him on the porkfor at least another week to see what happens. A month on single source food is not enough to create an issue. In fact, you may want to try the rest of this week without the turkey to see what happens.
You'll be relying on mouse only, and he'll not be eating bone for a week, but many ferrets go without bone for more than a week and or single source protein when they're switching.
Another thing you may want to try is slippery elm bark instead of the pepto and/or carafate when you're ready. It does coat the tummy like pepto. Anything that coats the tummy inhibits absorption. Some ferrets do better with the something very soothing about the slippery elm rather than the pepto.. There's something soothing /anti-inflammatory with the slippery elm for some ferts.
As far as carafate goes, it works differently that than the pepto/slippery elm bark. It works more like a band-aid that sticks to any ulcers forming a coating that protects the ulcers from stomach acids.
If the poops do not improve/stabilize by the end of the week after stopping the antibiotics, I'd be calling the vet. I can't remember if Koda had the blood draw for his baseline. If he has, you will probably have the results by then, and your vet may prescribe pred over the phone.
One or two more weeks (even one with NO turkey/bone) will not hurt Koda, and you may see improvement.
If Koda has issues with all poultry, you may need to feed bone meal - at least short term - to figure out if the improvement/stabilization is associated with poultry. Yes, this is a major pain-in-the-butt!
But once we figure out what's going on, things will become more routine.
-jennifer
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
He has not had baseline blood work done yet. I'm saving up, getting him health insurance, then doing that and a microchip at some point. I can do no turkey that is easier for me lol I hadn't given him his micies either the lastfew days his poop after the mouse last night was better- a lot better. A little green in it but nothing too bad mostly normal colored, nice and firm but a bit skinny...what does the green mean? Also I'd like to start the multivitamins soon. You gave me a bunch of links but which would you recommend? I was leaning towards Thorne Research bc my vet has heard of them at least...
Heather
Administrator
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Don't bother with the insurance...it's a scam if they will even take him. He has a pre existing problem...IBD. They won't cover anything. We've had this discussion on a number of lists, this one included if I remember correctly. It was decided that your money was better spent if you created an account that earned interest and put your money into that. I've heard of too many reports of promised pay off's and when people go to collect the company has some fine print BS that tells why they cannot cover the problem. My mother spent a fortune on insurance, they covered the odd medical bill, until the dog had to have dental work done. The claim was refused because she had a bishon and they are known to have dental issues (this is true) so it wasn't covered. After that any time there was a health issue, they made reference to the dental problem. They wouldn't cover a rash because it could be related to her deteriorating teeth. You get the picture It's just the way it works....put the money aside that you would pay in premiums and just use that to cover Koda's expenses. You will save yourself the heartache of lining an already rich company with your hard earned money .
The green sometimes means that the food travelled a bit too fast. With an IBD fert that's standard issue It can also mean that he's having some tummy cramping (at least I know that's what it meant with Ghenghis). Think about cholic in babies
I really can't help you with the whole multi thing (I just don't use them) Take a close look at the non-medical ingredients. These are the things that I find often cause issues. There are often some really disgusting fillers, that can cause issues...petrochemicals, soya (really bad for Koda), dairy products (I never could figure out the why for this one)....just read very carefully. You (because of your education) will be better equiped to understand what a lot of the multi additives are.
ciao
hurricanekatt
HF Forum Senior Member
********
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
« Reply #42 on Oct 17, 2010, 4:49pm »
[Modify] [Delete]
Sorry I have been slacking on updating my post. Mainly because I don't have anything good or bad to add. Right now I am pretty much saving up a little money to get Koda's blood drawn. He is going to need the Pred I think - his poops are pretty much right back to square one. I have still been feeding him just pork and mice. I want to try to get a hold of that slippery elm that you mentioned. There is a Natural Health store next to my work, I am sure I can find some there. Is it like a pill or a powder?
I have started a poop log, but I haven't been super good about keeping up with it. it is hard because he seems to be doing most of his pooping at home right now, and so it gets covered in litter and I can't really see it very well. He pooped outside of his cage a few times though and it wasn't too great. Small, mucousy, dark colored poops! It is really frustrating. I'm copying this to the thread too so that everyone else can get the update. Thanks for checking in. I have been meaning to post but just didn't really have much to update on. *sigh*
Heather
Administrator
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Having nothing to report when things aren't going well is understandable. We have a tendency to push off in hopes that things will change for the better and we hope that by not putting things in print we won't discourage ourselves. Living on pred though not great, isn't that bad either. It offers them a good quality of life and that's what you're looking for.
You may never see a great poop from Koda again, but.....you will learn to understand and know when he's not feeling well and when he's doing better. A healing candle for Koda will be lit tonight.
Good luck little furry, good luck hurricanekatt....give your little Koda a hug from me
ciao
mustelidmusk
Holistic Ferret Mentor
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
The thing we're hoping for is that the pred will settle his system down, and his poops will improve and stabilize in the improve state. Hopefully, the pred can then be reduced back slowly until Koda's off of it, and he'll remain stabilized for quite a while.
It can be challenging to get a routine that works for Koda. We may try some things that cause a bit of a set back. It may seem like we're getting nowhere, but as patterns begin to emerge, we'll get better at avoiding the setbacks. So, the flare-ups will hopefully get fewer and farther between up to a certain point. You'll learn to recognize flare-ups that require more pred. Also, you'll get the pred. into Koda before the flare has a chance to get his system really riled up.
The suck part is that this requires so much patience. And I know that you're type-A driven (you have to be to survive pre-med.)Type A's are typically not particularly patience when their ferrets are having issues - I know about this first hand
-jennifer
Sorry I have been slacking on updating my post. Mainly because I don't have anything good or bad to add. Right now I am pretty much saving up a little money to get Koda's blood drawn. He is going to need the Pred I think - his poops are pretty much right back to square one. I have still been feeding him just pork and mice. I want to try to get a hold of that slippery elm that you mentioned. There is a Natural Health store next to my work, I am sure I can find some there. Is it like a pill or a powder?
I have started a poop log, but I haven't been super good about keeping up with it. it is hard because he seems to be doing most of his pooping at home right now, and so it gets covered in litter and I can't really see it very well. He pooped outside of his cage a few times though and it wasn't too great. Small, mucousy, dark colored poops! It is really frustrating. I'm copying this to the thread too so that everyone else can get the update. Thanks for checking in. I have been meaning to post but just didn't really have much to update on. *sigh*
Heather
Administrator
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
Having nothing to report when things aren't going well is understandable. We have a tendency to push off in hopes that things will change for the better and we hope that by not putting things in print we won't discourage ourselves. Living on pred though not great, isn't that bad either. It offers them a good quality of life and that's what you're looking for.
You may never see a great poop from Koda again, but.....you will learn to understand and know when he's not feeling well and when he's doing better. A healing candle for Koda will be lit tonight.
Good luck little furry, good luck hurricanekatt....give your little Koda a hug from me
ciao
mustelidmusk
Holistic Ferret Mentor
*****
Re: Koda's IBD Thread (Irritible Bowel Disease)
The thing we're hoping for is that the pred will settle his system down, and his poops will improve and stabilize in the improve state. Hopefully, the pred can then be reduced back slowly until Koda's off of it, and he'll remain stabilized for quite a while.
It can be challenging to get a routine that works for Koda. We may try some things that cause a bit of a set back. It may seem like we're getting nowhere, but as patterns begin to emerge, we'll get better at avoiding the setbacks. So, the flare-ups will hopefully get fewer and farther between up to a certain point. You'll learn to recognize flare-ups that require more pred. Also, you'll get the pred. into Koda before the flare has a chance to get his system really riled up.
The suck part is that this requires so much patience. And I know that you're type-A driven (you have to be to survive pre-med.)Type A's are typically not particularly patience when their ferrets are having issues - I know about this first hand
-jennifer