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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2016 7:00:07 GMT -5
When I got Vinnie last year, he was already in rut and he had no undercoat at all, his current coat has lots of undercoat and he's very plush at the moment  When he comes in rut again, I don't know if all the undercoat will fall out or if he'll still have some undercoat since his previous owner fed him kibble. When I got Jasper, he was also in rut but he still had an undercoat unlike Vinnie who had no undercoat at all, just guard hairs that were very short and like tooth brush bristles. Do you think that when Vinnie come into rut this year, he'll have an undercoat like when I got him last year or will he still have a little bit of an undercoat since he's now on a raw and whole prey diet? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2016 9:21:30 GMT -5
I think a breeder will have to help with this question. What time of year did you get Vinnie? As I understand it, a ferret always has an undercoat but in the spring it is not as full because they don't need it for warmth. So you see more of their topcoat (guard hairs) and more pattern and color. weaselwords.com/ferret-articles/shedding-a-hairy-situation/ |
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Post by Sherry on Feb 12, 2016 11:30:08 GMT -5
They should indeed have an undercoat. It is the guard hairs that change. If he doesn't I'd be hesitant to breed, due to a possible mutation. I could be wrong, but Heather, crazylady ? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2016 12:06:03 GMT -5
I think a breeder will have to help with this question. What time of year did you get Vinnie? As I understand it, a ferret always has an undercoat but in the spring it is not as full because they don't need it for warmth. So you see more of their topcoat (guard hairs) and more pattern and color. weaselwords.com/ferret-articles/shedding-a-hairy-situation/I got Vinnie at the start of April, I don't know if he had no undercoat last year was because if poor diet since he was fed a low quality kibble that isn't even on the kibble chart. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2016 12:08:07 GMT -5
Hobs should keep their undercoat all of the year round. I would be concerned about why he had no undercoat, will be worth seeing what summer brings this year.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2016 12:08:53 GMT -5
They should indeed have an undercoat. It is the guard hairs that change. If he doesn't I'd be hesitant to breed, due to a possible mutation. I could be wrong, but Heather , crazylady ? The kits he produced haven't had any coat issues, they've all got an undercoat, Gus has his summer coat now too, so does Bobby and they've both still got an undercoat. Do you think it could be from having a very poor diet before I got him? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2016 12:14:23 GMT -5
Hobs should keep their undercoat all of the year round. I would be concerned about why he had no undercoat, will be worth seeing what summer brings this year. He did start to get a bit of a undercoat after 3 months of me having him while he still had his summer coat which is why I'm wondering if it was due to poor diet. Another thing, he was very scrawny when I first got him too and he put loads of weight on within the first week of having him while he was transitioning to a natural diet which he took a liking to very quickly. |
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Post by Heather on Feb 12, 2016 12:16:13 GMT -5
I would be concerned. My hobs are never naked, weird shed but they've always got an undercoat. I would hold off breeding this boy (if that's you're intent) to rule out a possible genetic problem and see if he sheds off his undercoat again. You have an adrenal hob already (or maybe it's Vicki-ann) but this would concern me a lot. The genetic part of the adrenal disease you don't want to pass on and to create kits with a genetic marker for this is not a good idea. It could be dietary but I would rule out possible health and genetic issues before using him in a breeding program. One of the genetic issues with selfs and angoras is the lack of undercoat, this is a genetic issue so yes, I would be concerned
ciao
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2016 12:27:19 GMT -5
I would be concerned. My hobs are never naked, weird shed but they've always got an undercoat. I would hold off breeding this boy (if that's you're intent) to rule out a possible genetic problem and see if he sheds off his undercoat again. You have an adrenal hob already (or maybe it's Vicki-ann) but this would concern me a lot. The genetic part of the adrenal disease you don't want to pass on and to create kits with a genetic marker for this is not a good idea. It could be dietary but I would rule out possible health and genetic issues before using him in a breeding program. One of the genetic issues with selfs and angoras is the lack of undercoat, this is a genetic issue so yes, I would be concerned ciao I'm not ruling out health and genetics but he is from very healthy lines, both sets of his grandparents have lived into double digits and his parents seem to be heading in the same direction and there hasn't been any health issues in his ancestry, he's from Russian, French and German lines. I'm holding off breeding him until he's shed off his winter coat to see if he keeps his undercoat. My adrenal hob is completely unrelated to Vinnie too. |
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Post by Heather on Feb 12, 2016 12:43:00 GMT -5
It's one of the difficulties in breeding...the hidden. Sometimes it's a one off and means nothing, other times you just hit the right combination to create an issue. That's when it becomes, will this happen again and am I creating a monster that I'm going to regret later. It could very well been a dietary issue but I've dealt with a lot of neglected and abused ferrets...undercoat is something they usually have. Sparse outer coat, adrenal ferrets but usually with dietary issues (baring starvation here) are not an issue with total undercoat shed. Watch and wait but I would be concerned
ciao
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2016 12:51:26 GMT -5
It's one of the difficulties in breeding...the hidden. Sometimes it's a one off and means nothing, other times you just hit the right combination to create an issue. That's when it becomes, will this happen again and am I creating a monster that I'm going to regret later. It could very well been a dietary issue but I've dealt with a lot of neglected and abused ferrets...undercoat is something they usually have. Sparse outer coat, adrenal ferrets but usually with dietary issues (baring starvation here) are not an issue with total undercoat shed. Watch and wait but I would be concerned ciao I am going to wait and see what happens with his coat, he's starting to bully the jills little so I think he might be starting to come into rut so he's been separated from them and he's also getting yellow marks around his back feet. |
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Post by crazylady on Feb 12, 2016 13:11:44 GMT -5
Hi I notice you mention he heralds from Russian lines along with German /French he could possibly be carrying mink in his background ( self have either non or very slight undercoats ) a self is a breeding of ferret to mink I have seen this many times on my travels around the world in Poland Russia Denmark and other countries they breed in the mink hoping to get a tighter more dense colour what they get is smaller skulled smaller eyed ferrets who may have underlying health problems I am not saying he is carrying mink but it is certainly a trait of the self to have very little or no undercoat take care bye for now
Bev
oh and even though you may see selfs as black self that is not always the outcome I have seen silver mink mated to albino and sandies on my travels
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2016 13:12:35 GMT -5
I would be concerned. My hobs are never naked, weird shed but they've always got an undercoat. I would hold off breeding this boy (if that's you're intent) to rule out a possible genetic problem and see if he sheds off his undercoat again. You have an adrenal hob already (or maybe it's Vicki-ann) but this would concern me a lot. The genetic part of the adrenal disease you don't want to pass on and to create kits with a genetic marker for this is not a good idea. It could be dietary but I would rule out possible health and genetic issues before using him in a breeding program. One of the genetic issues with selfs and angoras is the lack of undercoat, this is a genetic issue so yes, I would be concerned ciao I have an adrenal hob too. @frolickingferrets It's worth taking the time to ensure you are happy Vinnie is a sound breeding hob. I made a big mistake with the first litter I bred, and my adrenal hob, Parsley, is the result. I could never say I regret it, as I do adore him and couldn't imagine not having him and his sister in my life. But I wish to god he was healthy and I hadn't brought him into the world with the genetic predisposition to the problems he now has. Since this hard lesson, I have taken several ferrets out of my breeding program, some I realised after I jumped the gun and was unnecessarily cautious but I'd rather do it this way round than not be cautious enough and make the same mistake I made 4 years ago. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2016 13:34:18 GMT -5
Hi I notice you mention he heralds from Russian lines along with German /French he could possibly be carrying mink in his background ( self have either non or very slight undercoats ) a self is a breeding of ferret to mink I have seen this many times on my travels around the world in Poland Russia Denmark and other countries they breed in the mink hoping to get a tighter more dense colour what they get is smaller skulled smaller eyed ferrets who may have underlying health problems I am not saying he is carrying mink but it is certainly a trait of the self to have very little or no undercoat take care bye for now Bev oh and even though you may see selfs as black self that is not always the outcome I have seen silver mink mated to albino and sandies on my travels Is it possible for ferrets to carry mink without being a hybrid since polecat-mink hybrids are infertile and can't reproduce, would it have the same effect on ferrets since polecats and ferrets have the same number of chromosomes and mink have more chromosomes which would produce a hybrid with an odd number of chromosomes? I'm curious about this. I'm quite certain Vinnie has not got mink in him, his parents are both definitely ferrets, his mum, Midget is a silver panda and his dad, Vincent is a cinnamon blaze, both don't have wardenburg syndrome, his grandparents don't have it either and the only solid colours in his bloodline are albino and DEW which are his grandparents on his mother's side. Vinnie has taken after his mum in his head shape, he's got a slightly pointier face than most breeding hobs, similar to that of a marshal ferret but is albino like his grandad Albus who's from Belgium. |
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Post by Heather on Feb 12, 2016 16:18:23 GMT -5
One thing to consider even barring the mink x ferret deal (we cannot mix mink and ferret over here, the American mink does it's own thing and eats ferrets)....you've mentioned DEW, panda, blaze and silver all in that line. Too me and to many others this is a huge warning bell as to historically speaking these are "undesirable markers" in a breeding program. Just because they're not Waardenburg doesn't mean that you're going to be able to steer clear of other breeding flaws (Irish spotting, which is what a panda and DEW is)for long.
ciao
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