Too much protein can lead to health issues

[Deleted]

I've always suspected that too much protein in kibbles could cause health issues in ferrets and reading this has just increased my suspition
members.tripod.com/ferret_luv/fernutr.htm
This is not so much of a problem with ferrets who are fed whole prey, in fact never heard of a whole prey feeder have any issues with kidney failure.
However I have heard a couple who have ferrets develop kidney problems who feed just raw and heard quite a few from those who feed kibble that has a higher protein content than 40% but non from those who feed kibbles that have the reccomended protein percentage which is 32 - 38%.

Here are a couple of stories that I've heard about kidney problems relating to having too much protein. The first story I'm going to start off with is about a little albino jill called Breeze. First some background on Breeze, my grandad's friend rescued Breeze himself after he found her as a young ferret stuck in a rabbit trap (she was estimated to be 5 months, this was later confirmed when she was growing in length), she was terrified of him at first but soon came out of her she'll when took her home with him. For the first three years of being with him and he feeding her just a whole prey diet, she was healthy, happy and energetic but after 6 months after he switched her to a just raw meat diet, she stared to go downhill pretty quickly. Breeze was taken to the vet and was diagnosed with kidney failure and because he had fed her a healthy diet of raw, there was no other indication to what could of caused it other than too much protein, her diet was altered so it had a lower protein content and I'm pleased to say that Breeze is still alive today after 3 years after being diagnosed with kidney failure

This second story, unfortunately doesn't have a happy ending this one is about my friend's beloved Benny, a sable hob thay she had since he was 9 weeks old, he was a kibble ferret that had raw as treats when she was training him which was a couple of times a day. The kibble he ate had 43% protein in so you'd expect a very healthy ferret, he was up until he was 2 and 1/2 when he was diagnosed with kidney and renal failure, his diet wasn't altered like Breeze's was, he was given medication instead and unfortunately he didn't live for very long after his diagnosis, he was 3 and 4 months when he passed away, so young

I've heard a few more stories about ferrets having a too high protein content in their diets causing kidney and renal failure and for this reason I don't reccomend feeding kibble that has a higher protein than 37% and I also don't reccomend feeding just raw, I reccomend either a raw diet mixed with some whole prey or just a whole prey diet.
My friend has never had another ferret after Benny died, she comes over to play and cuddle my furbabies instead and she ferret sits them if I'm going away for a few days and can't take them with me.

[Klarissa]

The issue is not the amount of protein in kibble vs raw, it is the usability of the protein. It is a myth that raw meat contains too much protein & will lead to kidney failure.

Anecdotes, are not evidence. AND if anecdotes are sufficient evidence, then here is an entire forum of raw feeders. Of the health issues that arise, we don't see a lot of kidney issues. Studies have shown raw diets do not cause kidney failure in other carnivores (eg: dogs).

[Heather]

That is old school hokey and it directly related to kibble feeding not raw. Kidney issues are a direct result of the constant use of non-usable protein and the ability for kibble to keep a ferret and cats perpetually in a state of almost dehydration. There is also a genetic predisposition to renal failure as well. Alone or in combination the use of kibbles can be directly related to renal failure
ciao

[Klarissa]

It's similar to the quality of sugars/carbs. 15g of sugar from Hawaiian Punch, is not the same as 15g of sugar from a banana.

[Deleted]

You also need to keep in mind that all the added proteins tend to be synthetic in kibbles.
I wouldn't think of it as the protein alone that aids to kidney failure. Its the whole stuff they throw into the kibble biscuit.
From synthetic dyes, to synthetic vitamins. Nothing beats the natural stuff but humans in the pet food industry rarely think about the animal's overall health. if they did, Kibble wouldn't have ever been invented to begin with. lol.

[Deleted]

healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/04/26/make-this-mistake-with-your-pets-food-and-you-could-destroy-their-kidney-and-liver.aspx

[Heather]

One has to remember what and why kibble was created for. It's a relatively new process. It was originally created for dogs who were working the battlefront and ship yards. Feeding canned meat to animals during the first world war was expensive, heavy to transport, so they were often fed rations (biscuits). It was decided that it would be so much easier and healthier to create a biscuit type formula that could be easily transported and wouldn't go bad in transport. It was never meant to be "food" or a constant diet. It was meant to be fed for a few days or a few weeks until "real" food could be fed. It was the ease that created the demand and the use of garbage meats (4 D meats) thus making huge profits for the manufacturers. Kibble didn't become a big deal until the 60's when it became very convenient and backed by vets
ciao

[Deleted]

Heather Wow, I didn't know that! Makes you rethink how animals should be fed to begin with! It's sad that 'only feed kibble for your pet' is ingrained in our heads instead of thinking about what they would eat in the wild or 'naturally'.

[Heather]

There have been a number of things that have become the norm but really serve no purpose except line the pockets of manufacturers
ciao

[Klarissa]

I can see how kibble has its place in shelter & rescue organizations - I don't think its feasible in many regards to attempt to feed that many rescue carnivores raw.

That being said, it doesn't have to be the most abysmal kibble ever - I know my local rescue feeds bottom of the barrel kibble, literally as crappy as it gets (Iams, Pedigree). Even Orijen would be a massive step up. And in shelters, its still meant to be temporary.

[katt]

Ok going to be honest and say I did not read this whole thread bc it's bedtime. Haha But I had to pop in to make an important point...

Kibble actually has Significantly more protein than raw meat. Think about it this way - we all know our bodies are made up of mostly water correct? And our bodies are meat. Meat is mostly water, meaning that the protein it has is relatively diluted. The water content of meat is GREAT for the kidneys (hydration is everything), and the protein in raw is much more easily digested and utilized. Meanwhile kibble is very dry and is made out of very concentrated protein, with almost no water content. So not only is the actual protein content much higher, but you are adding the strain of chronic dehydration to boot. THEN you add in that much of that protein is plant protein that isn't useable and you really run into issues. Feeding raw is WAAAAAY better for kidney health any any kibble.

ALSO, I almost forgot to add....believe it or not, RAW meat is actually much LOWER in protein than even the "Low Protein" (aka HIGH CARB) renal prescription diets offered by vets.... Hmmm....check and mate kibble companies.

Ok bedtime!

[Deleted]

I can understand kidney and renal failure being linked to kibble but does anyone have any idea why Breeze who was never fed kibble, has kidney failure?

[Deleted]

Feb 1, 2016 22:53:23 GMT -5 Klarissa said:

I can see how kibble has its place in shelter & rescue organizations - I don't think its feasible in many regards to attempt to feed that many rescue carnivores raw.

That being said, it doesn't have to be the most abysmal kibble ever - I know my local rescue feeds bottom of the barrel kibble, literally as crappy as it gets (Iams, Pedigree). Even Orijen would be a massive step up. And in shelters, its still meant to be temporary.

The rescue where I got my Beavis from (Unwanted Fuzz) feeds raw and converts their rescues to raw, and only adopts out to raw feeders as far as I'm aware.  They had 74 ferrets when I picked up my Beavis. So many little guys running around. I even had his cute albino climbing my leg.

[Thérèse]

Feb 1, 2016 18:04:36 GMT -5 @frolickingferrets said:

For the first three years of being with him and he feeding her just a whole prey diet, she was healthy, happy and energetic but after 6 months after he switched her to a just raw meat diet, she stared to go downhill pretty quickly.

I guess the question is, what do you mean by a raw meat diet. Do you mean a frankenprey diet with appropriate quantities of meat, bone and organs, with a variety of proteins or do you just mean raw meat with no bones or organ and no attempt to create a balance? If you feed just meat without the bones and organs in relevant quantities that is a raw meat diet but it is not a balanced and healthy diet and you will get health problems in time, depending on exactly what is missing form the diet. If it was a balanced frankenprey diet there is still the possibility in a group of one ferret perhaps only eating the bits they like. Either of these may have contributed to Breeze's problem. With whole prey it's harder to just eat the bits she likes.

Just a thought

[Deleted]

Feb 4, 2016 11:56:52 GMT -5 Thérèse said:

Feb 1, 2016 18:04:36 GMT -5 @frolickingferrets said:

For the first three years of being with him and he feeding her just a whole prey diet, she was healthy, happy and energetic but after 6 months after he switched her to a just raw meat diet, she stared to go downhill pretty quickly.

I guess the question is, what do you mean by a raw meat diet. Do you mean a frankenprey diet with appropriate quantities of meat, bone and organs, with a variety of proteins or do you just mean raw meat with no bones or organ and no attempt to create a balance? If you feed just meat without the bones and organs in relevant quantities that is a raw meat diet but it is not a balanced and healthy diet and you will get health problems in time, depending on exactly what is missing form the diet. If it was a balanced frankenprey diet there is still the possibility in a group of one ferret perhaps only eating the bits they like. Either of these may have contributed to Breeze's problem. With whole prey it's harder to just eat the bits she likes.

Just a thought

It was frankenprey but true, she could have been eating only the bits that she liked the most.