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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2016 16:09:28 GMT -5
Wondered if anybody knew anything about the genetics behind mitts and bibs, and blazes for that matter too?
I have had a h*ll of a time trying to find out what breeding ferrets with white marks will mean.
I am aware of the link between high white and Waardenburgs (much like high white and megacolon in rats) and for this reason don't want blazes/pandas etc.
One of my ferrets, Poppy, has white mitts, but does also have a white dash on the back of her head which wasn't obvious until she got to about 5 months old, she is not deaf and is much like a normal ferret in every other way. I am interested to know more about how her genes might translate if she is bred.
In rats, a rat going towards high white can be bred back to a solid rat or one with very few white marks to reduce the white in the kits, and this will avoid the possibility of high white kits.
Does this work in ferrets? Will an overly white marked ferret bred back to a sable self reduce the white down in the kits?
In matings so far, this has seemed to be the case, Syd has some white toes and white knee patches, but bred to self jills has produced nothing more than a white throat patch in some kits, the rest have been self.
From what I can gather, to produce high white, white markings need to be bred to white markings and white markings soon slip out of a line if self is continually used.
Has anyone got experience of this/know anything regarding this?
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Post by Heather on Jan 2, 2016 17:56:54 GMT -5
There was a book that came out of Australia a few years ago. If you can get hold of it, it really covers a lot of the genetics of colours. It is unfortunately out of print but sometimes you can pick it up. It's Fret Popper's "The Coat Colour Book. The genetics of coat colouration in the domestic ferret, a guide book for breeders and interested ferret owners". It's a rather simplification of the colour codes for ferrets but it really made some breeders stop and give their head a shake. It discusses issues about dilutes, markings and silvers and DEWs and the use of mitts, blazes and other markings. One of the things we've discovered over here and many of the breeders are moving away from is the use of 'selfs' and the avoidance of dilute or silvers and DEWs. Some breeders have actually gone as far as removing this type from their lines and starting over. For the longest time dark colour was being injected by the use of selfs...in the space of about 5 or so years almost all have removed this from their lines. That being said now they're dabbling in the whole angora thing  We just don't know when to leave best well enough alone. To be honest from dealing with rescues and dealing with "fancy" colours....silvers, DEWs, mitts, blazes, knee patches, mutts and other varying colour creations, each gives me a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach when they get turned in. I've had such lousy success in getting any longevity out of them. Now that being said, you've probably not got this colours so deeply ingrained in your lines in the UK as some of the ferrets I've had to treat so are of healthier stock. One of the things that was mentioned in the book was that a lot of the colours and markings can be found in other creatures and the problems found in those (dalmation, white shepherd, white boxer.....) are being seen in the same context in ferrets. Deafness, heart problems...even some behavioural issues. It is a fascinating topic but there is so little known about it which was why this book was a real interesting read. It does go into what possibly could happen when breeding various colours and thus possible outcomes. It does also go into the possible negative impacts. ciao |
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Post by maja01 on Jan 2, 2016 18:40:27 GMT -5
Some of the colour genetics is also covered in Lewington's 2nd ed. of Ferret Husbandry, Medicine and Surgery.
If you send me your mail on PM, I can send you a pdf of first version (i guess is an unreviewed) of Fret Popper's.
There was a great yahoo group on ferret genetic years ago - it is unactive now and I don't know if you can access the conversations if you are not a member, but there was quite some debate about the white markings too.
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Post by Heather on Jan 2, 2016 19:31:56 GMT -5
Ah, the yahoo groups they rather died when FB and other methods of computer communication. I found several of the discussions on that group interesting. It was at that time that we were starting to get a lot of deafies
ciao
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2016 5:03:28 GMT -5
There was a book that came out of Australia a few years ago. If you can get hold of it, it really covers a lot of the genetics of colours. It is unfortunately out of print but sometimes you can pick it up. It's Fret Popper's "The Coat Colour Book. The genetics of coat colouration in the domestic ferret, a guide book for breeders and interested ferret owners". It's a rather simplification of the colour codes for ferrets but it really made some breeders stop and give their head a shake. It discusses issues about dilutes, markings and silvers and DEWs and the use of mitts, blazes and other markings. One of the things we've discovered over here and many of the breeders are moving away from is the use of 'selfs' and the avoidance of dilute or silvers and DEWs. Some breeders have actually gone as far as removing this type from their lines and starting over. For the longest time dark colour was being injected by the use of selfs...in the space of about 5 or so years almost all have removed this from their lines. That being said now they're dabbling in the whole angora thing [img src="http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h352/JW_2012/Emoticons/  .png" src="http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h352/JW_2012/Emoticons/ ![]() .png"] We just don't know when to leave best well enough alone. To be honest from dealing with rescues and dealing with "fancy" colours....silvers, DEWs, mitts, blazes, knee patches, mutts and other varying colour creations, each gives me a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach when they get turned in. I've had such lousy success in getting any longevity out of them. Now that being said, you've probably not got this colours so deeply ingrained in your lines in the UK as some of the ferrets I've had to treat so are of healthier stock. One of the things that was mentioned in the book was that a lot of the colours and markings can be found in other creatures and the problems found in those (dalmation, white shepherd, white boxer.....) are being seen in the same context in ferrets. Deafness, heart problems...even some behavioural issues. It is a fascinating topic but there is so little known about it which was why this book was a real interesting read. It does go into what possibly could happen when breeding various colours and thus possible outcomes. It does also go into the possible negative impacts. ciao Thank you Heather, my terms were a little off there. I don't own any selfs at all, I meant an unmarked sable rather than a self. White marks are still a relative rarity over here, and uncommonly are associated with deafness. Many old school breeders talk about mortality in silver to silver breedings hence that's a big no. I would also not be comfortable with DEWs as, from what I can gather, they are high whites. BUT in some lines, I believe they're due to a black-eyed dominant allele rather than a massive white spot (if that makes sense) ... which is something recognised in rats (black eyed siamese etc). The trouble is knowing without genetic testing which is largely unavailable. I have seen first hand in rats, dogs and cats the consequences of high whites. Double merle in collies is a good example, and sadly very common due to a lack of BYBs informing themselves properly. Very beautiful but very damaged. I have read Fret Popper's book and have it somewhere on this laptop but it doesn't go into the actual nitty gritty of loci and genetics which is what I am after to equip me to make informed breeding choices where white marks are involved. And white throats and toes are commonplace so it's important to me know what that might mean. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2016 5:07:29 GMT -5
Some of the colour genetics is also covered in Lewington's 2nd ed. of Ferret Husbandry, Medicine and Surgery. If you send me your mail on PM, I can send you a pdf of first version (i guess is an unreviewed) of Fret Popper's. There was a great yahoo group on ferret genetic years ago - it is unactive now and I don't know if you can access the conversations if you are not a member, but there was quite some debate about the white markings too. I did just find that book in PDF on here, thank you! It is very interesting and goes into the level of detail I am after! I'm now going to be geeking it up for days! I will have to go searching for that yahoo group to see if I can access it. I just feel that without this information, I will be as ferret breeders were years ago and blindly (well, making educated guesses) matching pairs, which is absolutely what I don't want to do. I want to be as aware as I can be of what my ferrets may be hiding behind their beautiful exterior and what the possible consequences are breeding ferrets. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2016 7:18:58 GMT -5
After looking through the genetics part of Ferret Husbandry, Medicine and Surgery ... irish spotting locus seems to be implicated in ferrets too with modifiers that control the extent, similar to the case in rats.
I wondered if white throats were proven to be irish spotting, they seem to crop up very often, and are almost never associated with white toes or any other white marks, they are just a slightly extension to the white chin really.
Is this a variation on non-white marked pointed/sable ferret OR are they proven to be sisi? In my own experience so far, they seem to be SS or possibly (I guess) Ssi.
And I'm also not sure if I agree with the findings about silver mitt. In my lines silver mitt is dominant and I presume homozygous lethal (although I'm not willing to test it out) as most silvers are in the UK. So I assume, mine are Rr? But they have mitts and bibs which are not irish spotting, as they only occur along with silver colouration, sables in the same litter NEVER have mitts or bibs, they are invariably unmarked or possibly white throated.
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Post by crazylady on Jan 3, 2016 7:27:04 GMT -5
Hi Vicki white markings have been around for years and years (go to any small working ferret show ) they come in all shapes and sizes I have even seen poleys with bibs the silver was introduced around 20 years ago and I saw the first of them lol a friend of mine mated a roaned out light poley ( called irish iris and a bino result light silver kits) everyone went crazy and wanted one and the silver craze was born pure Dews very rarely occur it is often a silver with the appearance of a bino the silver guard hairs being very few and far between around the age of three or four all hairs have disappeared hense they get called dews there are lots and lots of white marked ferrets ( we call them any other colour in shows ) there simply ferrets who show they have bino in there back ground some more than others if mitts and bibs pop up I have seen them live to great ages and I have not yet come across any deafness ( touch wood ) my son breeds dews silvers and sandies occasionally myself I stick too the two pure colors the poley and the bino with those you know what you are going to get lol my son when he was younger wanted to try a breeding and see what he would get a large sandy male was bred to a bino girl result 9 washed out polecats lol not a sandy or albino in sight those kits where never bred from so it was end of experiment lol obviously the dominant gene of the sandie ( being mainly polecat as some poleys in the wild are brown ) squashed down the recessive gene of mum lol good luck on your research take care bye for now
Bev
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Post by crazylady on Jan 3, 2016 7:34:13 GMT -5
Hi Vicky I have just noticed your recent post a true silver mitt must carry the bib as well as the mitts on all four feet the ordinary silver does not have any mitts or bib and they can be platinum silvers ( dark) or light silvers there is also a silver with a black nose lol showing the imput of the poley in a silver take care bye for now
Bev
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2016 7:59:14 GMT -5
Hi Vicki white markings have been around for years and years (go to any small working ferret show ) they come in all shapes and sizes I have even seen poleys with bibs the silver was introduced around 20 years ago and I saw the first of them lol a friend of mine mated a roaned out light poley ( called irish iris and a bino result light silver kits) everyone went crazy and wanted one and the silver craze was born pure Dews very rarely occur it is often a silver with the appearance of a bino the silver guard hairs being very few and far between around the age of three or four all hairs have disappeared hense they get called dews there are lots and lots of white marked ferrets ( we call them any other colour in shows ) there simply ferrets who show they have bino in there back ground some more than others if mitts and bibs pop up I have seen them live to great ages and I have not yet come across any deafness ( touch wood ) my son breeds dews silvers and sandies occasionally myself I stick too the two pure colors the poley and the bino with those you know what you are going to get lol my son when he was younger wanted to try a breeding and see what he would get a large sandy male was bred to a bino girl result 9 washed out polecats lol not a sandy or albino in sight those kits where never bred from so it was end of experiment lol obviously the dominant gene of the sandie ( being mainly polecat as some poleys in the wild are brown ) squashed down the recessive gene of mum lol good luck on your research take care bye for now Bev Interesting to know the origins of some of these colours, and good to know that what I am seeing with white marks is typical for the UK. I always thought DEWs were roaned out silvers - even my darkest silvers will end up DEW I think as they lighten up every year! Good also to know that you haven't yet come across deafness also. I have been reading a lot of posts about Waardenburgs ... and the phenotypic appearance - flattish heads and wide placed eyes ... some of my ferrets in some photos can look like this, but in every other way are normal and so far healthy ferrets?? And for the most part have long tails and normal length legs ... IME tail length is a heritable line trait and in sourcing different ferrets from different lines, I have found some are long, lean, and stoat-like in appearance, some typical chubby ferrets, some have shorter tails and some have longer regardless of size and shape? I wonder if your son's sandy male was phaeomelanistic sandy (E locus), rather than albino-related (C locus) sandy - which would explain the full compliment of washed out poleys? I find this all so fascinating! And what you describe silver-mitt wise is exactly what I have, never a mitt/bib without silver and never a silver without mitts/bib. EXCEPT it is definitely a dominant gene, rather than recessive. I also have silvers with black/speckled noses and prefer these. Unfortunately, in breeding a sandy hob (C locus/albino related sandy) this year, my resulting hob kits have both got pink noses which I will have to try and get back to black in further generations. The major trouble I find is trying to get away from Cc ferrets! So many people cross binis and poleys it's almost impossible to find a poley that is not carrying albino and has washed out colour due to this. So far, every poley ferret I have bought in is the result of a poley/albino breeding, except for my very first, Mischief. |
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Post by crazylady on Jan 3, 2016 12:13:59 GMT -5
Hi Vicki the white markings are very typical for the uk ( most working men crossed albino with poley when using them for hunting albino for its gentleness and poley for its fearlessness lol) my dad and grandfather simply stuck to pure bino lines and they worked just as well lol I use both but I stay true to colour types my son ( he is also a ferret judge and qualified to be a vet tec )adores the fancy colours but he documents everything just as I do lol ( my dad instilled that in me write it down you cant remember everything lol I still have his and my grandfathers books lol) my sons sandy male was the result of a brown poley mated to a pure albino jill he was from a split litter 3 albinos and 2 sandy ( and his mum and dad decided to make whoopee one weekend we where out of the country while my husband was in charge lol)I am lucky my poleys and albinos are from pure lines always like to like its hard when you buy in you have to be extremely careful as there is no way of knowing if you are being told the whole truth and yes the tail length can give you some clues the longer the tail the purer the line ( depending on body type of course lol you cant expect a bulldog to have a greyhounds tail lol) short stumpy tails often appear on inbreds its extremely hard to breed a sandy with a black nose silvers yes can carry it but sandys no lol I have been around ferrets all my life ( I am 55 going on 56 lol) my dad gave me first ferret when I 7 there where no boys in the family so I became the ferreter along side him and granddad lol life among ferrets is a pure learning curve I am still learning to this day lol and I expect after I am gone my son will continue but will he ever figure out the ferret totally ? I doubt it lol my dad and granddad had over 100 years of ferrets between them and they knew more than most but would be the first to tell you each day is a learning day as far as ferrets are concerned lol take care bye for now
Bev
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2016 14:23:30 GMT -5
1. Vicki-Ann or anyone, do blazes and pandas have shorter lifespans?
2. Is it possible for a blaze to gain hearing as it matures to an adult? Sometimes I go in room and my 11 month old blaze will come bounding out of cage(it is covered). She has done this about 2 or 3 times--- recently. Maybe it is just coincidence. I have not put a squeaky to her ear to check for a long while.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2016 14:30:17 GMT -5
1. In the USA, a post from Heather above suggests blazes and pandas may have a shorter lifespan BUT I cannot say whether this is the case over here in the UK. I don't think it is from asking around.
2. If a ferret is born deaf due to neural crest abnormalities, it will not gain hearing as it does not have the cells in place to be able to detect sound. If they don't migrate in the embryo, they never do, that is their one and only chance if that makes sense. If you were sure before that your girl is deaf, maybe she is responding to vibrations?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2016 15:14:58 GMT -5
Thanks, I do see what she wrote .
Well, she is my first blaze---we will see what happens.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2016 15:23:20 GMT -5
Thanks, I do see what she wrote . Well, she is my first blaze---we will see what happens. Hopefully someone from the US with experience might be along to give a better answer if you are in the US? The trouble with blazes ... they are just so beautiful! Hope your girl has a long and healthy life. I always say animals don't read the textbooks and I cannot count the number of times they have surprised me. |
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