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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2015 17:56:39 GMT -5
Hello im new here on the forums, i had a quick question about a local breeder i found near me that was the most reputable i could find, here is her site: www.ferrettownusa.com/index.htmlSome of the pictures on her front page set off a red flag for me after reading more about ferret color patterns. Some of them have all white heads but black paws, albinos with black eyes and overall mismatched appearance. I was wondering if this suggests inbreeding or not. I am just starting to research ferrets and want to make sure when i do decide to get one that it is as healthy as possible. Thank you!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2015 21:26:07 GMT -5
There are many coats and patterns for ferrets. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are inbred. The most healthy types are sable and albino. Other types like Panda, and DEW (drake eyed whites) may not have the best genetics as I've heard. Heather might be able to help you out more than I can.
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Post by FerretsnFalcons on Oct 11, 2015 21:44:13 GMT -5
Hello, and welcome to the forum! I actually contacted Nancy Park (who runs this ferretry) when I was looking for a pair of retired breeders. In my humble and personal opinion, she is one of the most reputable ferret breeders in the U.S. She feeds raw, has a health guarantee, tests all ferrets for ADV, plans out her litters, doesn't wean kits until 10-12 weeks, has a screening process for potential adopters, suggests that kits not be altered until 6 months to a year, and promotes deslorelin (probably because she's wary of the effects of altering). When I asked about her availability of retired breeders she said she didn't have any at the moment and recommended that I adopt from a shelter. This shows she supports rescues and is not breeding for the money. Someone on here may know something that I don't that classifies her as a disreputable breeder, but I'm pretty sure that she is a very good breeder. When I looked on her website I didn't see any "funky" colors (blazes, mitts, DEWs), just sables and champagnes. It's good that you are researching breeders though and making sure they're reputable!
PS: Inbreeding doesn't necessarily equal a bad breeder. While we may think it's gross or wrong, I think it does have its uses from a genetic standpoint. I'm not a breeder though, I could be wrong.
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Post by unclejoe on Oct 11, 2015 21:49:44 GMT -5
Dark eyed whites are just that, while albinos always have pink eyes. My net is giving me fits right now, but if you go to ferret.org under breeding topics you can find patterns and colors that the American Ferret Assn. recognizes. Any and all combinations are possible, but AFA lists what they look for in shows. This is Marshall's color chart www.marshallferrets.com/marshall-ferret-pattern-and-color-chartyou can't see it so well, but cinnamons are reddish brown and chocolates are the color of milk chocolate. Most colors have white undercoat.
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Post by Heather on Oct 11, 2015 23:05:54 GMT -5
No, this is a reputable, long time breeder. Many of the breeders who've been in the "business" for awhile have bred at some time or another for fancies. I believe at one time she bred for points but I do not believe she ever bred for fancies. I believe she has been leaning toward strong sable lines for awhile. Linebreeding is a practice that is followed by most breeders. There is no other way to guarantee consistency in a line whether they're breeding for albinos or sables or any colour or trait. If you continuously outcross you will never get a good line with solid backgrounds, your colours and characteristics will be erratic and unpredictable . Each time you outcross it's a guessing game and a risk. Linebreeding or inbreeding has become a great tag line to call anything that someone doesn't like. Linebreeding as practised by most breeders has absolutely nothing to do with any defect unless it's a recessive gene that has been doubled up. Sometimes breeders will inbreed to see if there is a dangerous recessive gene in their lines. Your end result should be entirely predictable unless your line is so tight that you've not outcrossed in several generations. In that case you will see problems that you've doubled up on that may be hidden, smaller litters and high death rates. These are nothing a reputable breeder want's do deal with so even your BYB breeders will probably avoid breeding that close.
INBREEDING and LINEBREEDING involve the mating of animals within the same family. Breeding relatives is used to cement traits, the goal being to make the offspring homozygous (pure) for desirable characteristics. Willis (1989) defines INBREEDING as the mating of animals "more closely related to one another than the average relationship within the breed." Inbred pairings would include brother/sister (the closest form), father/daughter, mother/son and half-brother/half-sister. LINEBREEDING involves breeding relatives other than the individual parents or brothers and sisters. Typical linebred matings are grandfather/granddaughter, grandmother/grandson, grandson/granddaughter, great-granddaughter/great-grandson, uncle/niece, aunt/nephew and cousin crosses. Linebreeding is a less intense form of inbreeding. In Willis’s (1992) view, a common ancestor farther back than the 2nd or 3rd generation will have little influence on the litter. Linebreeding beyond the fourth generation has even less genetic impact. ciao
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2015 23:50:35 GMT -5
Awesome. thank all of you for the information, much appreciated
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nanjferret
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Ferrets are people too!
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Post by nanjferret on Oct 12, 2015 15:21:35 GMT -5
Hi, this is Nancy of Ferretown USA. Thank you for the questions as it shows you are actively trying to learn about this topic. What you are seeing are what is called point patterns, the ferret has a lighter body all over with darker legs and tail and a V mask. The primary color can be sable or champagne or a variation. A ferret with the dark legs,tail and v mask would be a " SABLE" point. I have never inbred and personally do not believe in it. Line breeding can be done very carefully. The point is a strong pattern originating years ago over seas and can vary between a lighter standard sable to a full "Fine Point" which is a nearly white body with the dark legs etc. Points also tend to change color going darker in the summer. Colors you might see that are neural crest variations would be the solid black , silver and white markings such as mitts, blazes etc. The dark eyed white on my website is actually a very light champagne. Due to this very topic I am now concentrating on the point patterns in breeding, mostly sable with some champagne. Any ferret or breeding variation can produce unhealthy lines but reputable breeders try hard to do the best they can from the background knowledge of each ferret bred.
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nanjferret
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Ferrets are people too!
Posts: 94
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Post by nanjferret on Oct 12, 2015 16:09:15 GMT -5
As an add to this, that's correct that the natural colors are sable (as opposed to a solid black) and albino. I've had albinos live past ten years. Both are very strong for replication which makes breeding quite interesting at times.
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Post by Heather on Oct 12, 2015 17:32:31 GMT -5
Thanks for popping in Nancy ciao
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2015 1:05:10 GMT -5
Points also tend to change color going darker in the summer. Oh yes! I noticed this. My female Haru is a Sable Point and she was very light during winter but has a darker coat now since its spring going onto summer. She even has a full 'V' mask now. Its so interesting.
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Post by nancyl on Oct 13, 2015 12:37:13 GMT -5
I'll also throw out that there is nothing inherently evil in line or inbreeding. It is the fastest and best way to find recessive genetic faults and eliminate them from the gene pool. It's also the best way to set highly desirable traits. This is true in dogs, cats, horses, ferrets and any other animal. It would also be true of humans but we get all squicked out by the very idea.
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Post by Thérèse on Oct 14, 2015 5:31:48 GMT -5
I'll also throw out that there is nothing inherently evil in line or inbreeding. It is the fastest and best way to find recessive genetic faults and eliminate them from the gene pool. It's also the best way to set highly desirable traits. This is true in dogs, cats, horses, ferrets and any other animal. It would also be true of humans but we get all squicked out by the very idea. It's not just being squicked out, people just don't breed that way. You don't think now who do I have to breed with to get green eyed grand children and then who do they need to breed with? And can you imagine telling your kids that they can't be with that person because you won't get green eyed grand kids???
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 7:12:49 GMT -5
Hi Therese, You're absolutely right about that. Culturally humans developed the cultural norm of not inbreeding as a matter of species survival to avoid the genetic conditions in humans that all ferret breeders fear too. Animals that produce more than one or two offspring per pregnancy tend to be a bit more flexible about these kind of things because there's a greater chance that at least one or two offspring will survive. Iv'e attached a link to what's known as cross-cousin marriage in humans. would you consider this as line breeding in ferrets? www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/anthropology/tutor/marriage/xcuz.htmlMaybe this is a little off track, but I was wondering. Thanks so much, Suzie - Archaeologist -
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nanjferret
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Ferrets are people too!
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Post by nanjferret on Oct 14, 2015 12:26:22 GMT -5
If what my own diagram shows is correct, this would be a very close line breeding. I respect others opinions about inbreeding but I base my thoughts on it due to personally seeing some very bad health developments in lines in the past that were inbred (other breeders) for a specific trait. There is also the question of what is done with the poor offspring that come out less than desirable? An old time breeder, think 30 years ago, had an opinion that for every trait bred for, at each 3rd generation you should cross to a known, unrelated albino or sable line to strengthen the genetics then cross back to your desired traits (as in a color). While I think this is the way it should be done, these days the problem is many ferrets are so interrelated it's very hard to achieve. I try hard to line cross only where a repeat of a ferret or its sibling is at least 2 to 3 generations back. Try is the word here!
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