Raw Diet Transition

[Deleted]

I previously had a thread called "craving the raw diet". I am now wanting to make my switch but there are a few issues I want to check first. My two ferrets who are almost 5 months are currently being switched from blue buffalo sensitive diet which they were on before for some reason at the pet store here. The fiber level was 6%. Their poop started to change even with the gradual change in diet so my vet gave me banana flavored amoxicillin to give them 0.3 ml twice a day. Things were going well for the last week or two but this morning both of my babies had mucousy poop. I havent changed the diet for the last two weeks because they werent finished the mixture they were on of the two brands yet. I will include pictures of their poop. Unfortunately my one ferrets second poop today has become an orange color now. I am wondering what everyone thinks should be my next step in this situation. Should I continue their switch to zoopreem or just continue them on their current mix and switch to raw or wait until their switch is complete? Im  very worried about their tummies. Thanks so much guys for all the help!

[Deleted]

[Celene]

I missed your original thread, but went back and read it and saw you're from BC. Where exactly are you?

I'm not sure what you're feeding them now, but truthfully Zupreem is actually not a very good kibble and has been known to cause kidney stones in ferrets.

There is raw pet food manufacturer based out of North Vancouver called Red Dog Blue Cat. Their grinds (for cats) are 98% meat and 2% juiced veggies (and the veggies are usually low-sugar ones like kale and chard), which means they are pretty good. This is what I used to switch my ferrets to raw. Two things that might be of interest when dealing with your boyfriend's mom:

1. The grinds are 100% human grade. In fact, the facility in which they are manufactured and the food they produce is fully certified for human consumption. In fact, I have seen them advertise on their facebook page that you can make hamburgers (for humans) with their grinds!

2. They have recently introduced bacteriophages into their recipes. Basically what they do is kill targeted bacteria (in this case salmonella and listeria) and leave all the "good" bacteria alone. That means that while feeding this your boyfriend's mom will have NO WORRIES about contamination with salmonella and listeria.

Normally, we recommend starting the transition with a soupie made of chicken, however, chicken is a very common food sensitivity in ferrets, particularly in those with IBD. The benefit of using RDBC grinds is that they have a lamb formula - lamb is generally the "safest" protein to start with for ferrets with IBD. I'm sure they're sold at lots of places, but I know for sure Bosleys carries their line.


One thing to keep in mind is that ferrets should not be on grinds or soups long-term for a variety of reasons, which means eventually you'll have to work up to chunks. Is your boyfriend's mom vegetarian? If not, the food you would be storing for your ferrets would be the exact same meat as is kept in the fridge/freezer for the humans. I buy most of my ferrets' food at the local grocery store and T&T Supermarket (a great resource if you're in the Lower Mainland).

[Deleted]

I am going to Bosleys right now. I live in Abbotsford. I am wondering how much should I start them with first? or do I just give them that and take away the kibble? What should my steps be when to start them on the diet?

[Deleted]

I just picked up two packages of it and also one lamb & organs package but it was for dogs.. Its just lamb liver, heart, tripe and meat. That one should be ok to give them for organs right? I love how its all organic though.

[Celene]

two packages of what?

The lamb and organs one should be fine for now, but I recommend contacting RDBK (they are good about answering their phones - not sure if Abbotsford is long distance or not, but they have a toll-free number) to find out what % is heart and what % is liver. Ferrets should have at least 10% heart and no more than 10% liver. I can't find it on their website anymore, but I know the cat one is 20% heart and 10% liver which is within the guidelines. One thing about the "meat and organs" one for dogs is that it DOES NOT CONTAIN BONE. I suggest mixing in finely ground eggshell powder so they get calcium. The ratio is 1/2 tsp per 8oz (.5 lb) of meat.

It can be hard on their digestive systems to feed raw and kibble together, so it is a good idea to remove the kibble about 3 hours before introducing raw. To start, you can mix some of the (thawed) grind with a little water so it's kind of a soupie texture, and dab it on their noses (gently) or gums so they lick it and get a taste of it. It is much easier to switch them to raw before 4-6 months of age, but they're young enough that the transition should be fairly easy. If they don't take to it right away you can try a combination of the following:

• Finger feeding/letting them lick it off your fingers

• Spoon feeding
• Topping it with something yummy they already know and like (salmon oil, egg yolk, etc. not sure what they currently get)

• Making a very watery "broth" with the grind and getting them to try some of that first so they get used to the flavour

What genders are your ferrets? They are still around the age where they will eat quite a bit, and ferrets normally eat more in the first couple weeks of their switch. I'm not sure what size packages you get, but at the very minimum I would "budget" about 5 oz/day for a girl and 7 oz/day for a boy. Of course if they eat it all you should give them more! 

If they eat it (which they should) and you have enough to keep them supplied (i.e. they won't get hungry) you can jump straight to 100% raw. When they're fully on chunks I feed twice/day, but since grinds can dry up (and then be potentially ignored) I would feed once early morning, once late morning, once mid-afternoon and once at night. Of course if you're working and/or not home that makes it a little more difficult.

Finally, if you have a small kitchen scale it will make your life SO MUCH easier if you weigh all the meals you put out, and make note of how much they eat. Once you have a log going you can get a picture of how much they're actually eating so you can put out the "right" amount and not waste as much

[Deleted]

Hey so I tried waiting 3 hours to be safe before introducing my boys to the meats. They refused to touch it as is so I did as you said and tried to put egg yolk in the mix and they still just sniffed it and ran away.. I saw a video by Ferret-world about mixing some kibbles in with a bit of meat to introduce the flavors so I did that and monitored their poop. This worked wonders for them. However lychee (my one week older male) just ran around trying to puke in my bedroom. He finally did he puked twice both of which were bits of kibble he didn't even chew surrounded by bits of the lamb & veggie cat mix you had suggested by red dog blue cat. I made sure it was fresh thawed meat when I gave it to them. I'm wondering why he puked it all up though? He is resting now with no other symptoms he's acting like nothing happened. This has me a bit worried about the diet.

[Celene]

As I said in my previous post, many ferrets get digestive issues/upset when mixing raw and kibble together, which is why I suggested the waiting period between the two. If they won't eat it without the kibble flavour, it might be a better idea to grind some to a power and sprinkle just a little bit on top, so the food smells like their kibble but they aren't eating much of it with the raw.

How fast did he eat it? Another common thing is that when ferrets eat too much too fast, they will throw up right after. This isn't an issue with kibble or chunks of meat, but can be with grinds and soups because they're so easy to just slurp back. When I feed Mocha soupies as treats, I have to watch her and only give her a little bit at a time. Otherwise she will gobble it all up and lick the bowl clean, then run around and puke everywhere *eye roll*

[Celene]

Oh, and I just want to mention in advance, NOT to worry about their poops right now. Even when switching from one kibble brand to another they will get crazy poops. Switching from kibble to raw gives them even crazier/nastier ones. The ONLY thing you should be worried about/looking out for is poops with blood in them.

Let me know how it goes again with Lychee. It's almost certainly one of the two things I mentioned above. However, even though lamb is the "safest" meat for ferrets with food sensitivities since it is the least common allergen, there are ferrets out there who are allergic to "anything with a hoof". It's rare, but something to be aware of.

[Deleted]

I watched my ferrets play all day with no other issues. I am still surprised their poop has improved instead of getting worse! I was expecting possibly diarrhea or something but it actually looks pretty good compared to before. We are still mixing the kibble with the meat because they just wont touch the meat without it. My boyfriend was looking up tons of tricks to try and we have only found mixing the kibble to be a winner so far. I guess it will just take a lot longer then I thought to get them to just try the meat alone. Im also finding buying red dog blue cat to be expensive. Bosleys only sells the 227G for 4$. A little over half of one weighs 7 OZ but from what I read they should be eating that per ferret if not more because they are still babies? If thats the case I may have to find a different alternative because it will cost me 240$ for 30 days worth of food if I added that up right..If theres a way I can buy it in bulk it may be cheaper but I get why some people feel its so much more expensive to feed them now..

[Celene]

I'm glad their poops are better - some ferrets get some really crazy poops while switching until their bodies get used to it.

Commercial raw foods are significantly more expensive than kibble for several reasons:



They have much higher standards for food safety. With kibble, the "meat" can be sanitized at very high temperatures so they use old/potentially contaminated/rotting meat. With raw, the food has to be edible and good to begin with. In fact, many CGR (commercial ground raw) brands that I know of use human-grade meat, and many are even certified to human food-safe specifications. (A local company to me has recipes on their website for burgers, meatloaf and other meals that humans can cook for themselves with the CGR).
In the case of red dog blue cat, they use free range / hormone-free / organic (when possible) ingredients. If you go to the meats section at a grocery store, you'll notice the "natural" meats are insanely costly!


They have a much higher percentage of meat. Anything worth feeding your ferret will have less than 5% non-meat ingredients. Not being able to bulk up the food with cheaper grains and veggies increases costs significantly.



Cold storage is expensive! Facilities which make CGR require vast areas of storage space, compared to kibble which can be kept in a basic warehouse. Pet stores also need to purchase freezers and pay the electrical bill on them, so they need to increase the markup to pay for this. Freezers also take up a lot of room in their stores.


Having said that, commercial grinds are meant only to be transitional and not the final diet. Ferrets should not be on a liquid/mush diet for more than one month (two max). The end goal here is to transition them to the frankenprey diet which will consist of boneless meat, bone-in meat, heart, liver and other organ.

The recipe for a raw "soup" we normally recommend when switching is as follows:

8oz raw chicken thigh (raw)

1 oz raw chicken liver (or other raw liver)

1-2 raw chicken hearts (approximately 1 oz) or 1 oz other raw heart

½ to ¾ tsp bone meal or crushed egg shell

(air-dry egg shell then crush with mortar and pestle or in a clean coffee grinder)



Weigh out your meat and organs.

Add bone meal or egg shell.

Add water until about the consistency of thick cream (no thinner!!). Blending up in a food processor is the easiest.


The reason I recommended the RDBC as an alternative is because chicken is sometimes not tolerated well by ferrets, and because of your boyfriend's mom's issue with bacteria. If you think the soup recipe might be cheaper though, you can definitely try that one. Ferrets take to poultry much quicker than red meats.

As for the grind, each time you make it just add less kibble and more grind until it's ALL grind.


PS - any extra costs in feeding them raw now will be saved in the long run in (greatly) reduced vet bills.

[Deleted]

They have much higher standards for food safety. With kibble, the "meat" can be sanitized at very high temperatures so they use old/potentially contaminated/rotting meat.

Read more: holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/18851/raw-diet-transition#ixzz3jHA2OleK

Now that is very interesting.

[Celene]

abbeytheferret6, this article is a very good prep course on where kibble comes from and what goes into it.

I don't have a good link right now for the part to back up my "rotting meat" comment since doing a quick search yields lots of claims about what's in pet food, with no proof/documentation. But the basics is, it's generally 4D (dead, dying, diseased, disabled) meats, as well as any meat that hasn't been properly stored and is therefore labeled as "unfit for human consumption", but they don't want to waste it. The "meat" is usually transported in a non-temperature controlled truck, and little attention is paid to how long it sits out, or the temperature at which is sits.

I have heard the same thing about grains and fruit/vegetables - it's all the stuff that can't be sold and fed to humans, so is often moldy and rotting.

Some people have claimed that pets/animals who are put down in some shelters end up in the REALLY low quality kibble labeled as "meat meal", but I highly doubt that one is true.

[Celene]

I should also add, that some of the better kibbles will specifically state that their meat is "human grade".

For example, from the Orijen website's FAQ:

Are Orijen ingredients human grade?

All of our fresh poultry, fish, eggs, red meats and game are of table quality and passed fit for human consumption by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency before arriving at our kitchens fresh each day.

Our chicken, fish and turkey meals and fats are produced exclusively from animals passed as fit for human consumption in facilities that are fully dedicated to this ingredient quality and certified as such by the USDA, FDA and Canadian Food Inspection Agencies (CFIA).

And others dance around the question a little to avoid answering. The "crappy" kibbles generally say nothing at all on the subject.

One more fun fact on kibble since we're on the topic, they often use ingredient splitting (and combining) to make their ingredients list look better.

For example, look at the ingredient list for "kibbles n bits" dog food:



You can see all the beef ingredients are combined as a single ingredient, but the wheat is separated into two. So assuming that there is a nearly equal amount of beef (combined), ground wheat and wheat middlings, there is actually TWICE AS MUCH wheat as beef in the kibble.

[Deleted]

That is so pitiful. Dog is getting mostly corn,soy, and wheat