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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 18:39:23 GMT -5
I am writing because I am desperate to see that my husband and I can keep all of our ferrets and not have to bear the pain of giving our new baby away.
We had three ferrets (Goober/male, Turbo/male, and Angel/female) until we added another (Zeke/male) a little over a week ago. For the first 24 hours we had the new boy, all the ferrets were fine with each other. After immediately bringing Zeke to the vet from the pet store, we brought him home to meet his new family and they all seemed to take to him. They played with each other, all of them dooking excitedly, and all slept together in the same cage. The following day, while Zeke and Turbo (~1.5 years old) were playing, Turbo got Zeke by the scruff of his neck and started to drag him on the carpet. Zeke immediately started squealing/screaming like he was hurt by something falling on him or something similar, so I intervened. That night everything seemed fine so we put them all to bed but we were woken up to the same screaming noise when Turbo was either scruffing Zeke in the cage or trying to cuddle up to sleep with him, so needless to say we immediately bought another cage. At first we thought that Turbo had just got too rough with Zeke and that this would go away, but a couple more days passed and Turbo kept trying to scruff Zeke, with the same reaction coming from the baby. NOW, our oldest ferret Goober (~4 years old), either tried to play with Zeke or immediately went after him in the same way, resulting in the SAME squeals and screams.
Zeke is still sleeping in his own cage by himself but have included some bedding materials taken from the other cage for him to get used to their smells. So far it appears the Angel is the only one who has not rough-housed or aggressed towards Zeke, so we plan to try to have them sleep together in the next couple days or so, but the thing is that because Zeke is getting targeted by the two other ferrets, whenever he sees Angel coming, he automatically starts to whimper, hiss, or run away so we’re not even sure if this will work. For the same reason, I’ve been hesitant to try putting Ferretone on each other’s backs to see if they’ll groom each other, which seems to be a suggestion I’ve seen quite a bit.
I think we have made some progress when it comes to Turbo and Zeke, however this seems to depend on whether or not Zeke was targeted by Goober earlier that day. If not, and under very close supervision, Zeke will whimper/squeal AT Turbo (kinda like how others might hiss instead), without Turbo even touching him. When they do make physical contact, it’s a little bit closer to rough-housing and Zeke does not run away from Turbo when he breaks free. HOWEVER, if Goober had previously targeted him earlier in the day, Zeke will run away from Turbo and if successfully scruffed, he will sometimes poop. My personal feeling is that Zeke is warming up to Turbo and will be fine with him in a little while - IF Goober will stop terrorizing him.
Now, with Goober, there doesn’t seem to be any “play” element to what he is doing. He will go up to Zeke and go right for the scruff of his neck and thrash around like an overexcited ferret would, but it definitely does not seem to be in a positive way - AT ALL! I have scruffed Goober, firmly told him “NO,” set him back down, and no matter how many times I do it there doesn’t seem to be any change. I would say pretty much EVERY time Goober targets Zeke, Zeke poops and for a good minute or so after being picked up, he’ll be whimpering in my arms like he’s afraid Goober will still be able to get him.
This is where I need everyone’s help - how can I get Goober to STOP blatantly attacking Zeke??? Scruffing and telling him “NO” multiple times doesn’t seem to be working. Earlier today I broke out the Apple Bitters stuff and immediately after Goober attacked Zeke and sprayed some on my finger and grazed it over his lips so that he got the nasty taste and smell. I thought after the first time that maybe this would work, but Goober seized a chance to strike again when I was making dinner. Again I did the same thing and Goober has retired to his “outside the cage” sleeping spot.
Can anyone please give some helpful suggestions to try to get this to stop?? I’m already very much loving on Zeke because he’s such an affectionate ferret (i.e. kisses, falling asleep in my arms, etc.) but I am fearing that we may have to give Zeke away - for his own sanity and safety! Unfortunately my husband and I are young and can only afford our one bedroom apartment, and the only ferret we have “treat bag trained” is Goober, so realistically HE’s the only one we can have in our bedroom, leaving not a lot of separate spaces for the ferrets to play together. We’ll keep Zeke in a separate cage from Goober for as long as it takes, but if we’re home and awake, the ferrets have always been allowed out of their cage, so we don’t want to deprive them of that happiness.
Please please please, share your own experiences, tips, etc. for how to address this situation so that we don’t have to get rid of our adorable baby Zeke. Please either message me here or at tcmitche@buffalo.edu
-Tim
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 20:45:12 GMT -5
I wished I had a good story to tell.
I got a new one I think it was in March. She is about 6 mos old now and senior female still gets her by the nap of the neck and gives her a shaking. I have tried to use marshall farms ferret panels to block senior from rooms that the younger one is in, but occasionally she moves gates and gets to her. I would definitely keep the baby away from the agressive one.
My baby had a limp and chin would bump the floor when she walked. I do not know if it was because senior ferret shook and hurt muscles in neck or shoulder area or if she ws damaged in transit. I had x-rays done and there were no broken bones. (baby is fine now)
So now i have what they call 2 businesses. (groups)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 20:58:43 GMT -5
Abbey - are the two ever at least playful with each other, or does the older one just ALWAYS seem to be "going for the kill" towards the younger one? We are slowly seeing progress with the two young-ish ferrets (Turbo and Angel), in that they are definitely playing but sometimes the older one (Turbo) gets a little too rough and we need to separate. With Goober on the other hand, he will circle around myself or my husband as we sit on the floor with Zeke in our lap just waiting to strike - like a snake or great white shark - and has even brazenly attempted an attack while we're holding Zeke! We end up putting Goober back in the cage and after the second or third time doesn't even put up a fuss to come back out to play with the others and just goes back to laying in the hammock. We still try to play with Goober and give him affection but right now it really does just seem like his only MO is to go after the baby.
We have held Goober so that Zeke can face him and Zeke seems to be trying to assert himself a little bit, and if carefully guarded Goober will sniff at Zeke's behind, but once the opportunity presents itself he will attack. Zeke already seems to be growing, so we're hoping that he'll end up being close to Goober's size so that there won't be as much of a size advantage as there is now, but that could still take a few months. We're holding out hope that because nobody bothered Zeke that first day that eventually things will all shake out, as they are already seeming to do with Angel and Turbo, but with Goober we're just kind of at a loss because he doesn't seem to be getting the message when we scruff him repeatedly, say "NO," and give him time out in the cage because of his attacks.
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Post by Heather on Jul 1, 2015 21:12:18 GMT -5
How old is the baby? He may just be a bit too young to defend himself or realize that he can defend himself. I'm guessing these are all farm ferrets. Some are sadly lacking in social skills because they've never really been taught how to behave because they've been removed from their family units too young. You might have been ok originally if you'd not interfered...note I said might, it might have gone bad after Goober found out this addition to the business wasn't a visitor but a new family member. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, now you're going to have to really work toward introductions and it may not necessarily work. Goober was originally letting Zeke know he was boss. Chances are it would have ended there but when you interfered you changed the dynamics and Goober is now frustrated. In his opinion he's the boss, but he's being told he's not and you're allowing the baby to have superior rank in the business, plus he's being scruffed that only makes him angrier because he's been ranked as a kit and he's taking it out on Zeke. Babies are meant to be dragged around and stashed and they're expected to scream when you bounce their heads off the floor (we humans cringe and worry and more often than not interfere and remove the baby from the situation)...babies hold the bottom of the ranks. One of the problems that are often discovered is that because farm kits are removed too early they often have no idea how to posture or react, even the adults often screw up the signals.
Try putting the baby on your lap and letting the business meet him where you're in complete control. If Goober attacks the baby say no and remove him from the situation, do not scruff him. Give him a few minutes and try again. You may never succeed, it may be that Goober has decided that he doesn't want the kit in his business. The kit may decide that he doesn't want to be a part of a ferret family. This is one thing many don't realize when they take on a new ferret is that they may be rejected or reject their new family.
You can try putting some sudocreme on the Zeke's scruff this might help. Do not use Bitter Apple as it is horrible stuff and there is no reason to punish the baby as well as Goober...and it never works anyway.
There will be others come on and offer more suggestions. Good luck.
ciao
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 21:44:00 GMT -5
The baby I believe is about 9 weeks old. I agree with you and even thought to myself that maybe he was torn away from his mother and siblings too early, which would certainly affect his ability to be correctly socialized.
It is hard to say and impossible to know for sure if my intervention inadvertently made things worse. The thing is, Goober was not the first one to "attack" Zeke - it was Turbo who did that, scruffing and dragging him across the carpeted floor as Zeke made his screaming noises. In that moment I think that Turbo thought he was playing and the baby freaked out, and being the concerned father I was, I stopped it. Goober's attack on the other hand seemed much more calculated and explicitly an attack, but again, ONLY after the first incident between Turbo and Zeke occurred.
In working to address this situation, because of the difference in how Turbo and Goober were engaging Zeke, we took a hands-off but very carefully supervised approach when Zeke and Turbo were together. Eventually Turbo's "attacks" were anything BUT attacking in nature - in face he started to back into Zeke, almost as if to suggest submissiveness or to show "hey, i'm not trying to attack you!" Today with my husband supposedly he supervised Turbo and Zeke actually PLAYING together, dooking and all!
There's a part of me that wants to try the same kind of "hands-off" approach between Zeke and Goober but it is very clear that Zeke is afraid of Goober. When Goober goes after him Zeke is doing his screaming/squealing noise, but also defecates or pees, which I have read means that he is really scared and/or in pain. Also, when I have separated Goober and Zeke, Zeke has red marks on the scruff of his neck which make me think that if I had not intervened skin would have been broken and blood would have made an appearance. Again, I have read that if there is blood, pee, or poop involved, the two should be separated. I am also a little concerned that if Zeke knows we consciously put him in a space where Goober will attack him, that will compromise his trust in us, which already seems very firmly established.
What is this sudocreme exactly? Would the American equivalent be like Desitin (for baby rash)? And would putting the sudocreme on Zeke's scruff be to protect Zeke's skin or to deter Goober from trying to scruff him?
Sorry for all the questions, but this is our third year now with ferrets, all of which Goober has been a part of, and it's really breaking our heart to see him acting this way because he has always been like the role model ferret for the others, but his behavior with Zeke has us viewing him no longer through rose-tinted glasses anymore.
Thank you for your reply!
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Post by Heather on Jul 2, 2015 0:10:41 GMT -5
If you were putting it on a baby's butt Desitin would indeed be fine but it tastes good to a ferret....sudocreme doesn't taste good....I know ferrets, what can I say...you can order this from Amazon if you want it. It is baby butt creme.
No, Zeke's defecating and urinating is indeed a complete sign of fear/terror and means you have to use a different approach between the two boys. You may see things get better as he gets older and bigger and starts to make friends with the other ferrets (security in numbers). I've heard of people taking up to 6 months to get a group together and other times it becomes a complete failure (I've experienced that). I'm presently trying to get 2 ferrets to work it out. Both ferrets are about 14 months of age and both are so afraid (for different reasons, they're both rescues) that they are being miserable to each other. It's so very much a failure to communicate. They both are very sweet, but they just don't know how to communicate with each other.
Good luck, keep us posted. We will try and answer your questions if we can but there is so much about getting ferrets to accept one another that doesn't quite mesh and it's very much trial and error and sometimes like people they just don't like each other
ciao
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2015 2:38:23 GMT -5
I can however share a positive experience - as for a while Aramis ( the boss of our crew) did the same to Marbella when we got her, and to baby Gizmo when we got him , like your boy does to Zeke. I first tried the "on the lap" approach, with sniffing and all, firm no to the attacker, a lick of salmon oil to both when it was going ok. I used to wait until they were tired, and then let them sleep together (when Aramis was too sleepy to care). eventually they learned sleeping together is ok. Eventually, with msrbella, he woke up and beat her up again - i let them at it , since she is very vocal, a lot of times she exaggerated. I let them at it. We had some stinky poofs, but then it sorted out. Now she's his girlfriend:) with gizmo - we lmhad high superbision until he grew up and managed to defrnd himself - but I can tell you Aramis wiped the floor with him repeatedly as a baby - now they are very closely bonded. It doesn't always wotk out but...There is hope:)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2015 4:25:09 GMT -5
Senior is never playful--just wants to get a hold of her neck. However, I have a young craigslist girl--my nipper who accepted her immediately. Baby is learning to play fight with her, and one day i will put senior and baby together again( I am sure they will get together accidentally now and then  ). I thought the situation would be totally opposite. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2015 7:40:30 GMT -5
Quick correction - Zeke is now 13 weeks old. I misspoke before because I thought he was 8 weeks old when we first got him and have had them about a week now.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2015 8:08:07 GMT -5
Hi,
I'm kind of a newbie to ferrets, but I went through this same thing. When I brought my newest baby home he was very young and was actually pretty sick. Only one of my other two males had any issue with him. I think the behavior was similar to what you've seen. I just kept those two apart until the baby was big enough to handle the "punishment". I have a two-story ferret nation and kept the upper and the lower sections separated. I put my petite female in with the baby on the top and had my two big males in the bottom. Having my female with the baby let those two bond and gave the baby time to get healthy and bigger. It was a pain letting the two pairs out at different times, but it was worth it. Once the baby got bigger and healthier, I started letting all four out together and removed the separation between the levels of the cage. At that point it seemed like all I had was the typical intro/dominance issues that we've all experienced. The nice part about it is that now the baby and the bully are best friends. They play REALLY rough together, but I can tell it's just play as the baby gives as good as he gets.
This worked for me - it might work for you too.
Good luck,
Suzie
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Post by crazylady on Jul 2, 2015 12:46:29 GMT -5
Hi at 13 weeks he is too young to handle the stress of your older males if your female ferret has taken to him let her mother him and teach him how to be a ferret he will grow in confidence if she takes him under her wing I know it maybe a pain having two businesses at the moment but it wont be for long once he hits 24 week slowly begin introductions hope this helps take care bye for now
Bev
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 18:25:14 GMT -5
Just to update...
We have been able to have each of the two middle ferrets (Angel and Turbo) spend the night with Zeke on different occasions in the baby's cage with success AND Zeke is playing with Angel and Turbo without issue (aside from Zekes vocal playfulness). Unfortunately Goober still attacks Zeke ferociously, many times as soon as he sees he's out and about. There still hasn't been blood but it's because we intervene due to how much louder his cries are along with his involuntary defecation.
A short while ago tonight we tried putting Zeke and Goober in a shallow bath to play in the water and wash off their smells (we didn't use soap so it wasn't a proper bath). While they were in the tub both of them were fine aside from the usual bath avoidance behavior and when we took them out to dry off in the bathroom they were fine, Zeke even approached Goober a couple times with mouth open (posturing) and Goober did nothing in response. A short time later we tried allowing both Goober and Zeke out at the same time but Goober went back to his usual very aggressive behavior.
I just ordered Sudocrem from Amazon Prime so it'll be here on Thursday and will try putting that on Zeke's neck to try to get Goober off of that.
This is all very stressful and a trying time for my husband and I. We both love Goober to death and have had him since the start of owning ferrets and it pains us to feel so much anger towards him for this completely unprovoked aggression to a ferret half his size. Thanks everyone for your advice. We're going to continue to try to make this work for a couple more months before possibly having to make a difficult decision (we simply don't have the kind of space conducive to keeping two separate businesses).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 18:56:51 GMT -5
So sorry about that---hoping things work out.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 19:14:03 GMT -5
Hang in there.
I went thru the same thing with my baby Mika. My Roamy was far too aggressive with her. My Juliet mothered her. We quickly realized that Roamy had to be kept separate from Mika until she was a little older.
We made sure that he saw her every day and that she had plenty of playtime with Juliet.
We are a free roam house, so that meant blocking off the upstairs from the downstairs and making sure that each one had time with Juliet.
After two months of this, we were at Halloween. We brought home a pumpkin and put all three in the upstairs office. Then we watched carefully and everyone was very occupied exploring this pumpkin.
When Roamy got close to Mika, I waited and watched. All of a sudden, he was fine with her. She jumped him once or twice to play and he didn't get rough. It was all over and now He and Juliet treat her like she is theirs. He's sweet and plays gentle with her.
She just needed to get bigger and he needed to get use to her.
We then introduced a big boy Wynstan who was seven months old and bigger than Roamy. It started all over again, but this time I used a time out sin bin and that intro took only about five weeks.
Now we have a little deaf girl and our intros are not going as well. This time is different. Juliet also is being rough with her. My Keller is not allowing anyone to play with her except Mika. I'm giving it time and letting them work it out.
So, keep working with them and give the baby some time to grow. I'm looking forward to your posting an update that tells us that everyone is now friends.
:wave3:
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Post by unclejoe on Jul 7, 2015 19:43:00 GMT -5
Patience is key with ferrets. Whether potty training, or just getting along. When we introduced my wife's bunch to mine, there were fireworks for a couple months. All of them were over 3 and hadn't had any new additions in over 2 years. But they learned to get along.
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