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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2015 13:45:40 GMT -5
So I feel the need to apologize because I'm going to ask basic questions I'm sure I could find if I sorted through enough threads, but I need to be honest in its very overwhelming! I see a few different opinions and I get one question solved but then I add three more..so I feel efficiency wise just asking is my best bet. I recently joined this forum because my boy was on Zupreem grain free and got stones. I really am filled with regret on the whole ordeal especially because if we're being honest I found this forum when I first got my babies and I shied away from it due to fear and lack of knowledge on my end. It has also feels impossible to find a vet who supports raw and offers advice.I felt like I couldn't handle raw and I still sort of do..but I can't shake the feeling that it's something I need. Currently I have my babes on Evo..but I'm hoping to switch to a commercial raw diet. I'd eventually like to get to a point where I'm doing more than that, but due to a slew of reasons (I could list if you really need to know ) I think that will be far down the line as it is too much right now. I'm going to bullet my questions now..I appreciate again if you've even taken the time to read my rambling this far. -what is the BEST choice out there as far as commercial raw? I'm seeing conflicting opinions -what should I be looking for as far as nutrition on packaging -I'm under the impression eventually I will need to add in some raw foods to supplement their diets? Even if I buy a commercial raw that is considered "complete"? -is there any brand that offers a variety? I'm aware I am supposed to do a variety..but I am interested in not having to jump between brands..at least for now Thank you! I really do hope to one day get even better with this. My concern with preparing everything on my own is doing it right...which is why I would love a brand I could feed and know they are getting what they need. I think this whole experience has sort of shocked me to a point where I'm afraid of feeding them anything without stressing. So for now I want to keep away from preparing on my own.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2015 15:37:38 GMT -5
Don't apologize. We know that you only want the best for Weasel and Eugene. Most of us find the forum, looking for help for ferret issues. We aren't joking around when we say that as wonderful as the silly little guys are, they are complicated little creatures. Funny, smart, curious, silly, loving, and complicated. I found the forum looking for help for my Ponce with his Insulinoma and Lymphoma. I quickly learned how important their diet was and was completely overwhelmed by all the reading, during the emotional time while Ponce was so sick. There is one other option available and that is Freeze dried raw. It can be expensive, but is a very good option. I used it while I was learning about their diet and getting ready to move them onto Frankenprey. I needed to be sure that I was giving them a balanced diet and I did not have a vet who believed in the Frankenprey diet or raw in any forum. I followed the Frankenprey guidelines and bought a minimum of threee proteins. I bought Stella and Chewy's duck,duck,goose and tummy ticklin turkey. They have several other options, but those were my five's favorite. Always buy the feline version. The Canine will have starches, fruits and veggies and no Taurine. I also bought Whole life Cod and several other Whole Life products. I bought Wysong Archetypal 1 which is FDR and Natures Variety instinct raw boost bites in different flavors, rabbit/pheasant/goat I quickly saw a difference in their coats. Then I settled down and began reading. I signed up for the Mentoring program and once I felt secure and sure that I knew their nutritional needs, I made the move over to raw. FDR offers most of the benefits of raw. It doesn't help with cleaning their teeth, like eating bones will. It is expensive and most products need to be bought online, unless you have a holistic pet store in your area. Stella and Chewy's will offer the most variety for you. The problem with choosing one brand only is that if there is a recall or a product change, then you suddenly have two finicky ferrets, who will refuse to eat this new food. That's why kibble feeders usually will mix two kibbles. Then they have one to fall back on. They aren't likely to recall all the proteins though and that is one good product to look into. FDR is a dry product, so you want to rehydrate it. It's raw food, so you wash your hands and treat it as raw. It can remain out for the whole day. If you could convince your little ones to eat gizzards, then that will help clean their teeth. You can also learn to brush their teeth to help keep them in good shape. Don't overworry yourself. We are all happy to help and the more you hang around and read, the easier this becomes. Here is a good link to learning how to read the ingredient lists: moredooks.herobo.com/search.php?chart=ferretI hope this helps some. Keep asking questions and reading. Before you know it, all this will make sense to you. Give Weasel and Eugene a big hug and tell them that they have a very good ferrent who is trying hard.
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Post by unclejoe on Feb 6, 2015 15:45:24 GMT -5
First, I'm not going to say anything to discourage you from switching to raw, but I recently did some research regarding stones. I had read from some ferret owners that grain free kibbles can cause cysteine stones, and the cause was suspected to be legumes like peas. I found out there are 4 different types of stones and that cysteine stones are caused by a genetic defect which prevent cysteine re-absorption. In any case, both ZuPreem Grain Free and Evo use peas and/or pea protein. If your fuzz has this genetic defect, diet is important, but peas in fact have a low cysteine content. Peas do contain a "moderate" amount of oxalate, so if the above mentioned kibbles do contribute to stones, they're likely to be calcium stones in the form of calcium oxalate, not cysteine, and switching from one kibble containing peas to another may not help. Cysteine IS found in poultry and egg yolk. So if you are going to modify/change diet, it's important to know what kind of stones he had. As I said, I have read of others complaining of stones while on Grain Free, but I don't have any info on the kind of stones they had. If you're interested, I can copy/paste what I posted on another form, but most points are covered here. I didn't put it in this forum at the time because most members feed raw and I wasn't sure if it would be appropriate, but since there are several types of stones the info may help others even if they don't feed kibble. One other point is that interestingly, in humans, uric acid stones can occur if the diet is too high in protein, as uric acid is a by-product of protein metabolism. Of course ferrets aren't humans and possess some digestive chemicals that we don't, and vice versa. Here are links to a couple articles I read. www.smallanimalchannel.com/ferrets/ferret-health/bladder-stones.aspx www.livestrong.com/article/256383-what-is-cysteine/ This link has a chart with oxalate content of various foods. The vast majority of kidney stones (nearly 90%) are composed of calcium oxalate. These foods are all plant based. www.ohf.org/docs/OxalateContent092003.pdf I hope this helps. Edit: About a year ago I emailed ZuPreem about this issue and never got a response. I encourage anyone who has had a ferret develop stone while on Grain Free or any pea-containing kibble to contact the manufcturer. I have not fed kibbles with feed to any of my currently living ferrets.
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Post by RedSky on Feb 6, 2015 15:46:58 GMT -5
Hi, I think commercial raw is a great start to help your ferrets and I'm really sorry you have learnt the hard way about the downsides of processed dry foods or kibble.
In order for us to help you with commercial diets and recommend brands it would be helpful to know where you live, a state or area would help. I'm in the UK so can only recommend companies over this side of the pond but I can have a search to try find some else where if you are struggling.
Most companies make food aimed at dogs or cats, you are looking for cats really or dog food that has heart included. I think the percentages you are aiming for are 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 5% heart, 5% organs (liver and another often kidney but can be anything) or you could find some that 100% ground whole prey often things like pheasent, rabbit, chicken and duck in which case you should be fine to feed as long as it states it is the WHOLE animal. Some people struggle to find commercial without any fruit/veg or other bits added, and say that less than 5% is okay, but you are best looking for one that is 100% animal and nothing added.
You need at least 3 protein sources, so maybe chicken, rabbit and lamb. But the more the better, and it is best to have at least 1 red meat. I'd recommend to get as many proteins as the company produces and you can see what they like and don't like although it might take a while to see what they are refusing because it's new and what they don't actually like.
Most ferrets especially older ones (basically over 6 - 12 months) need lots of persuasion to eat raw. They don't understand it's food. A bit like me eating the sweet processed black liquorice but refusing liquorice root even though it's much better for me and completely edible. I'm currently working with a mentor to help me get my 3 ferrets onto a raw diet. It's really helpful and can be taken up by any active member on the forum once you have 15 post. All the members are volunteers so there are no costs involved and they can help you get your ferrets onto raw and find the best commercial food for them.
Another option although quite expensive if freeze dried raw. Stella and Chewies is a brand name often mentioned on here, again look for the cat ones. It's a US company (I think) so very very very expensive over here so my ferret's won't be getting any.
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Post by Celene on Feb 6, 2015 15:49:44 GMT -5
It can definitely be confusing at first, but the more you ask questions the clearer everything will get! I'll respond to your questions as best I can. In regards to commercial raw, I highly recommend you read this thread. In the second comment bitbyter (one of the mentors here) gave a pretty thorough overview which answers several of your questions. *click here for the thread*When looking for a commercial grind, first make sure you go for the ones designed for cats and not dogs. Cats have more similar dietary requirements to ferrets whereas dog grinds tend to have more veggies and other fillers. Ideally you want to get something that is 100% meat, but most commercial grinds have at least a little - make sure you stick to 5% or less though of "non-meat" ingredients. To meet a ferret's dietary requirements you need a food that has certain ratios of each component. Obviously muscle meat will make up the bulk of it. Then you want at least 10% heart (a good source of taurine), 10% liver (or 5% each of liver and another organ). You don't want liver to go over 10% because it is high in vitamin A which can build up in a fuzzy's system and cause toxicity. Finally, you want about 10% ground bone, although many commercial grinds say only "bone powder" so you don't know the exact amount. You should also aim to give at least 3 different proteins (animals) each week for variety. The commercial grind I fed during my transition was by a local company called Red Dog Blue Cat and they had a whole bunch of different varieties including chicken, turkey, beef, lamb, venison, buffalo, wild boar and kangaroo. It contained 98% meat and 2% juiced veggies, 20% heart, 10% liver plus bone powder, egg yolk and salmon oil. The heart is higher than the "recommended" amount but it's okay because taurine (unlike vitamin A) does not get stored in their bodies and they excrete whatever they don't use. While it is possible to feed a commercial grind long term (given the correct nutrition profile and variety) it's not ideal. Ferrets need to chew bones in order to clean their teeth, and chewing pieces of meat also helps build their jaw strength. When you're feeding a commercial grind diet you will need to brush your ferret's teeth on a regular basis. "Frankenprey" (pieces of meat and such from different animals fed as an all raw diet) is actually MUCH cheaper than most commercial grinds. It also doesn't take that much work. In a couple hours I can prep and package their meals for 2 weeks and freeze them. If you're worried about screwing up there is a dummy-proof frankenprey "menu" published by holistic ferrets which you can find here: drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BweJtjXjL6hdNWc1bDV3dzB4Uk0&usp=sharingI also highly recommend starting a switching thread and signing up for the mentoring program so you have someone monitoring your progress and talking you through each step.
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Post by Celene on Feb 6, 2015 15:50:41 GMT -5
Booh. Seems I took too long trying to be thorough in answering your questions and everybody beat me to it
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Post by ferretbrah on Feb 6, 2015 16:05:44 GMT -5
Take a look at mypetcarnivore for grinds. Pretty cheap if you order in bulk.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2015 21:16:30 GMT -5
@poncesmom, so would you say for now, it would be a good choice to do Stella and Chewys freeze dried and bounce between the proteins until I get a better handle on all of this? I have found a pet store close by who carries Stella and Chewys. I am only concerned because I see the ingredients have Pumpkin Seeds? Is that a concern? Thank you also so much for your kind words! I’m working my confidence back up with them. unclejoe, I find your thoughts very interesting! Although I must admit I do have a hard time following it all. Our vet didn’t clarify that it was the legumes causing the cysteine stones. Interesting to me that you mentioned this though because he did mention a chance of potential genetic defect. Basically, he phrased it as "it could be a defect mixed with the specific food or the food could be causing it and its luck of the draw" ..I see what you’re saying about peas probably not causing cysteine stones but causing calcium stones…but do you have any opinions on another ingredient in the kibble causing the cysteine? Potentially the poultry and egg yolk? It comes off you have a lot more knowledge on it than I can wrap my head around which is why i ask. Would you be thinking I should then lean away from feeding poultry when I switch to the raw? The vet mentioned that the stones were certainly cysteine. As far as emailing Zupreem, I sent them quite the emotional email and I have to say they responded immediately. I was interested in making them aware of this issue but they requested my veterinarians information. He politely requested I did not give them his information, and I lack knowledge on the topic, so that ended that communication. Thank you again RedSky I am from the US on the East Coast. There seems to be a lot of stores that carry these products so I am crossing my fingers I can find the right one. Thank you for your help with percentages! That makes it much more clear. I originally was looking into “Primal” for felines but I still want to keep looking at a few more. I ideally would like it to be 100% meat like suggested. @celene thankyou for the link! It is very informative. I looked into the brand you showed but unfortunately I am from the east coast on the US! Would the mentor program be something for someone like me only wanting to do commercial or freeze dried? Or is that basically so basic I can figure it out alone? ferretbrah thank you for the resource I really appreciate it!!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2015 21:17:19 GMT -5
Also when looking at Primal, it shows percentages for cysteine....should I be avoiding that as best as possible?
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Post by Celene on Feb 6, 2015 22:02:51 GMT -5
Absolutely anyone can sign up for the mentorship program! You can do so here. There is a little bit of a wait list, but you can start an "unofficial" thread in the meantime and mentors will stop by and give you advice. Don't worry about the minimum 15 posts requirement - you only need that by the time you're accepted and you're already 1/3 of the way there. That brand specifically was just an example of what I use. What I meant is that there are lots of smaller/independent manufacturers of raw grinds so you might be able to find one locally. If you're feeding entirely freeze-dried, make sure you reconstitute it in water first or your fuzzies will get dehydrated.
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Post by bitbyter on Feb 6, 2015 22:55:48 GMT -5
Cysteine stones are definitely tied to grain free kibble with high pea content. You can search for it in the forum. Many incidents going back over a few years. There is a study being done by a team of vets in the U.S. on this exact issue.
Once on a raw diet it usually is not an issue.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2015 23:38:01 GMT -5
thankyou so much!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2015 10:12:42 GMT -5
I like to order raw from Hare today, gone tomorrow. I've had very good experiences with them. I have fed natures variety when I forgot to put in an order in time. Brutus knows the difference and prefers hare today. I'm assuming he can tell that nv has stuff added. I like that I can get hair-in rabbit grinds, which I prefer for clearing out digestive tracks over adding pumpkin. I do often add a bit of water to the rabbit as the hair can make it a bit dry.
I buy local chicken wings for teeth cleaning.
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Post by unclejoe on Feb 7, 2015 10:58:59 GMT -5
"Cysteine is found naturally in a number of foods, including egg yolks, red peppers, garlic, onions, yogurt, grains such as wheat germ and oats, poultry and dark leafy vegetables like Brussels sprouts and broccoli. As a dietary supplement, cysteine is available both as L-cysteine hydrochloride and N-acetyl-cysteine, the latter of which is thought to be more soluble and better able to be metabolized by the body." www.livestrong.com/article/256383-what-is-cysteine/This particular article doesn't mention peas as a source of cysteine, although they are a very popular human food. I'm sorry, but I didn't save the links from other articles I read. I know that wheat is also a popular filler in animal kibble, but it's a grain.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2015 13:08:13 GMT -5
@jennicholson This is the Stella and Chewy's that I'm referring to; www.amazon.com/Stella-Chewys-Freeze-Dried-12-Ounce/dp/B00979PV1I/ref=sr_1_4?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1423331290&sr=1-4&keywords=stella+and+chewy%27s+freeze+dried+cat+foodSince you aren't ready to go full Frankenprey, I thought FDR might be a good option and then when you are comfortable or when you have a Mentor, you can make the full transition to a regular raw diet. Like Kibble, there is often other ingredients. It is what makes the meat hold it's shape. Ideally, a Frankenprey menu or Whole prey would be your best choice, but you aren't comfortable with that yet. It took me almost a year to get secure enough to do my research, learn about how their nutritional requirements worked and I was also adding ferrets to my business, after having an only ferret who was kibble fed. I've never fed commercial raw, but we do receive alot of questions about it. Celene put a link for you and that has some product recommendations, from ferrents who feed commercial grinds. With all the reading, feeding frankenprey can seem complicated. If I simply break it down for you, you will find that it's not that complicated and it is inexpensive compared to FDR and Grinds. The hard part is convincing them that this is food and that does take a little time and patience. The Frankenprey diet is simply designed to mimic eating whole prey and is based on a weekly menu: 7-9 meals of Bone In meats: Bone in is the None weight bearing bones of an animal the size of a chicken or smaller Chicken wings, cornish game hens, quail and rabbits are good choices 3-4 meals are Muscle meats: Think beef, pork, turkey, duck, and Heart. Heart is a muscle meat. It provides Taurine, which is essential for ferrets. 1 meal of Muscle meats will be Hearts or tongue which is also high in Taurine ten percent of their weekly meals must be Heart (taurine) Organs: Organs are defined as secreting organs. They will get 1 meal of Liver plus another organ 1 meal of Liver plus another organ plus a half meal of heart. Think kidney, brains, spleen, thymus, pancreas 5 percent of their weekly menu is Liver. Liver remains in their system and is full of vitamin A. For that reason, we limit the liver amount to five percent. 5 percent is other organ. Most of your shopping will be at a local grocery store. Most of us look for a good Asian Market as a source of Organs. Organs are actually pretty inexpensive. I hope this helps some. Don't get overwhelmed. Everyone has to start somewhere and this will seem easier and get more familiar as you learn. That's where a Mentor can really help you. You're just beginning and deserve a pat on the back for trying to do the best for your little ones. :wave2:
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