Commercial Grinds

[Deleted]

We receive questions about Commercial Grinds. I don't know anything about them or any of the good products.
To those of you out there, who feed a commercial grind, could you let us know some of the better quality products that you use. It would also be helpful to list where you buy them from and how much they cost.
:thankyou:

[bitbyter]

Commercial Raw
As raw diets have become more popular and more consumers start to realize that the convenience of kibble is not worth compromising their pets health, some forward thinking companies have started producing commercial frozen raw pet food. Usually these products are sold by small specialty pet food companies but more and more of the large box style companies are starting to carry it as will. It usually comes in two forms: Ground Patties and Ground Chubs which are either “complete” or “incomplete”. Pretty much all commercial raw products that are currently on the market are in the form of a ground meat product.

Incomplete Commercial Raw: This is usually just ground meat and does not contain organs or bones. Your pet CANNOT SURVIVE on this long term without serious health problems.

Complete Commercial Raw: Is a combination of ground muscle meat, ground bone and ground organs. Many also have a certain percentage of vegetables and / or fruits mixed in as well (generally the commercial products are meant for cats and dogs). For ferrets you’re best options are usually meant for cats and should meet the following guidelines:

10% to 15% ground bone
no more than 10% ground organs
no more than 5% vegetable matter

Companies:
Below is a list of some of the more popular commercial raw producers (in no particular order). Remember that for ferrets you generally should look at their cat products and they MUST meet the percentages listed above:

Vital Essentials Entrees For Cats
Primal Frozen Feline Formulas
Stella & Chewy’s Canine Frozen Dinners*
Rad Cat
Straight Answers**
Bravo Blends
Healthy Paws Feline Complete Diet
Carnivora Whole Animal Diets

*NOTE: Stella & Chewy’s Canine Frozen Dinners do meet the requirements listed above (except the Pheasant, Venison & Rabbit) while most companies canine products do not.

**NOTE: Straight Answers chicken does not contain heart so it is not a complete diet.

Considerations With A Commercial Raw Diet:
While a commercial raw diet is certainly very convenient, there are some reasons why it is not quite as good as a Frankenprey or Whole Prey diet.

Expense: Commercial Raw diets tend to be quite expensive. On par with or possibly more expensive than a Whole Prey diet.
Dental Health: a ferrets dental health generally relies on two things. Being able to chew on whole bones and the total lack of sugars and / or carbohydrates in their diet. Unfortunately a Commercial Raw diet does not meet these requirements (the bones aren’t large enough to benefit their teeth) and you WILL have to brush your ferret's teeth (weekly) or have them professionally cleaned (very expensive).
Lack of Control: Similar to kibble, you have no control over the ingredients when you buy Commercial Raw. In general the ingredients in Commercial Raw are far, far better than those in kibble, but the company can always change their recipe at a moments without having to warn their customers.

In the end, while a Commercial Raw diet is not as ideal as a Whole Prey or Franken Prey diet, it is still a legitimate choice and will provide far better nutrition than any kibble on the market. For some, it is the only diet they feed as it meets their needs (usually convenience) and still provides great nutrition for their pets.

Freeze Dried Raw
Freeze drying is a process that removes almost all the moisture from a product in order to preserve it. It is still technically a raw product and only slightly affects its nutritionally quality. It also lightens the food significantly (which is why most freeze dried producers will list the reconstituted weights as well as the freeze-dried weight). While freeze dried meats can be fed dry they are best fed reconstituted (water re-added so it is like a thick soup). Fed dry, it will pull water from the ferrets system during digestion leaving them on the edge of dehydration if it is their primary diet (similar to kibble).

Companies:

Natures Variety Instinct Raw Bites For Cats
Feline Natural Freeze Dried*
ZiwiPeak**
Vital Essentials Freeze-Dried***
Primal Freeze-Dried Feline
Stella & Chewy’s Freeze Dried For Cats

*NOTE: Does not contain bone so is not a complete meal.

**NOTE: Contains Chicory Inulin which is a form of sugar and is also an air dried raw product, not actually freeze dried.

***NOTE: Vital Essentials only makes canine freeze dried but they have ferret acceptable products. Their two acceptable products are:

Freeze-Dried Chicken Nibblets Entree For Dogs
Freeze-Dried Mini Pet Patties Entree For Dogs

Considerations With A Freeze Dried Raw Diet:
Like Commercial Raw, a Freeze Dried Raw diet has similar caveats to it. These are pretty much the same as the things to consider for a Commercial Frozen diet (dental hygiene, lack of control) but a Freeze Dried diet is even more expensive than commercial raw. Also, as Freeze Dried is usually reconstituted into a soup it can eventually cause issues with their bowel movements if it is the only thing they are eating (risk of prolapse). For these reasons, Freezed Dried is recommended as only a portion of a diet and not something that should be fed for every meal.

[Deleted]

That's great info, Thank you bitbyter.

I want to make sure that whatever a ferrent chooses, we can help point them to the best quality product possible. Ideally, we would all think alike and have the time and money to ensure our little ones get the best possible life. It doesn't work that way and I would rather pass along good info, then lose a ferrent and thus their ferret, because we insist on pushing our point of view, as their only choice.

[Celene]

I have been transitioning my girls on a commercial raw grind since my ultimate goal is frankenprey and I don't want to buy a meat grinder for such a small "in between" period.

I feed my girls Red Dog Blue Cat which is actually made locally (to me).

I feed them a mix of the cat ones which contain 2% organic juiced veggies (no cellulose, and they're also mostly low-sugar veggies like leafy greens - not ideal but better than most commercial!). They also contain 30% "organ" although it's 20% heart and 10% liver, and heart isn't considered an organ for dietary purposes. The chicken and turkey ones have pieces of chicken/turkey bones while all the others contain powdered buffalo bone. The formula also contains free-range egg yolk and salmon oil.

The only thing that concerns me about this food nutritionally is the lack of organ variety. I partially thaw each packet and cut into smaller pieces so that my girls get at least 2 different proteins a day (I rotate between 5 total so they get more than their required 3 proteins/week).

[Celene]

I forgot to add that it's about $1.99 CAD (about $1.70 USD) for a 1/4 lb packet. Not sure if that's a good price or not.

[raynebc]

That's really not much more expensive than an "exotic" meat. Where I live, something like lamb costs around $6-$8 per pound.

[Celene]

raynebc - are you in the US? I double checked the prices on the ones I purchased (for simplicity and comparison purposes I've converted to USD).

For 1/4 lb package
Chicken: $1.70 ($6.80/lb)
Turkey: $1.80 ($7.20/lb)
Lamb: $1.97 ($7.88/lb)
Buffalo: $2.40 ($9.60/lb)
Venison: $2.40 ($9.60/lb)

I imagine the beef would be cheaper, and the kangaroo more bu the receipt I could find only had these. Meat in general is MUCH more expensive in Canada (poultry is basically double the cost) because of the much stricter regulations. (I'm pretty sure it's illegal to plump or add salt to meat here.)

What do people pay for other commercial grinds?

[raynebc]

I live in the US. For commercial grind, I don't think that's a bad price. Compared to normal ground or cuts of meat, it's a tad high, similar to what organically fed/raised meat costs.

[Deleted]

raynebc psht if you can get Lamb and such that cheap I need to move, Lamb is $11/lb and Veal is $12/lb where I'm at.

[Celene]

Oh, I suppose I forgot to mention that the meat in the commercial grind I feed is all non-medicated and hormone free. The poultry is all free range/free run and I want to say about 70% of their suppliers are organic (particularly for poultry) but since they get their meats from a variety of suppliers the meat isn't guaranteed organic or anything. The eggs, buffalone bone powder and salmon oil are all certified organic. Sometimes it pays to live in the Portland of Canada!

@julesalot, is there a nutritional difference between veal and beef?

[Deleted]

Celene, Veal and Lamb are both red meats and high in Vitamin B, so they're both good/equal nutritionally.

[ferretbrah]

I've used hare-today and am currently using rodent pro (large dark mice / retired breeder quail ) and mypetcarnivore. So far, I like the mypetcarnivore over hare-today. price-wise, I would make a similar order on each site and go through shipping for a comparison.

Mypetcarnivore does not use 4D meats either (not sure about hare-today)

I have yet to have them try the whole prey so I cannot speak for the quaility of it, but they are packaged very nicely vacuum sealed.


I would definitely eventually go as much whole prey as you can if you could somehow get 3+ different animals (very hard to do price wise ) and mix in franken prey. Imo , the good thing about some grinds is that it is easier to hand feed vs whole prey if you need to get them to eat or if they are sick. Also, grinds like mutton , pheasant , duck, rabbit or goat are much more accessible vs cutting them up yourself. Price-wise the duck was cheaper than the Asian market nearby per pound.



The only issue with buying online is you want to order a lot at once to save on shipping.


Look at my main thread on page 6 or 7 for my order info and thoughts while comparing prices.

I also would recommend Stella and chewys duck duck goose and tummy ticklin turkey, but they both had bags that mine wouldn't eat unless hand fed due to a change in taste, color and consistency for some reason. Price for 2 ferrets would be about a bag a week or so $25-30.

[Deleted]

i buy primal dog freeze dried as a treat for mine. mine go nuts over it but it does have some plant matter in it, same with natures variety frozen for cats, but its a great start to raw. and i use it as a bribe whenever i introduce something new

[raynebc]

Dec 23, 2014 16:08:38 GMT -5 @julesalot said:

raynebc psht if you can get Lamb and such that cheap I need to move, Lamb is $11/lb and Veal is $12/lb where I'm at.

That's just for ground lamb. Some other places near me that carry whole cuts have several that are in the $10-20 per pound range.

[Deleted]

Dec 23, 2014 17:11:52 GMT -5 Celene said:

Oh, I suppose I forgot to mention that the meat in the commercial grind I feed is all non-medicated and hormone free. The poultry is all free range/free run and I want to say about 70% of their suppliers are organic (particularly for poultry) but since they get their meats from a variety of suppliers the meat isn't guaranteed organic or anything. The eggs, buffalone bone powder and salmon oil are all certified organic. Sometimes it pays to live in the Portland of Canada!

@julesalot, is there a nutritional difference between veal and beef?

There are some small differences in fat content, vitamins and cholesterol.
Veal of course will be much more expensive.
Here is a link with the differences:
www.livestrong.com/article/419246-how-does-veal-compare-in-nutritional-value-to-beef/

There is a difference when it comes to chicks and baby mice. Those are considered treats not a full meal.