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Post by kia4evr on Dec 19, 2014 14:25:37 GMT -5
Hello all, I have 2 ferrets both about 4 yrs of age. Daisy has adrenal disease and kidney failure, she receives SC fluids daily and Lupron every 2 months. Mozart has insulinoma and is on Pred. Both are doing well but will only eat Uncle Jim's Duk soup exclusively. I have tried crushing their dry food and mixing it in, mixing canned cat food, no luck. Any suggestions. I have started adding taurine 250 mg once a day to their soup. I am worried that they will not get the proper nutrients. I started the duk soup in October when they got really sick and found out about the kidney failure and insulinoma
Thanks
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 15:43:34 GMT -5
Hi and Welcome to the HFF I'm so sorry about Daisy and Mozart. I found the forum when my Ponce was sick and I was searching for help. Ferrets imprint on their food at an early age. Yours are four and that makes trying to change their food while they are sick, even harder. I'm dealt with Insulinoma, so let me address Mozart first. Is Mozart on Prednisone or Prednisolone? Prednisolone is easier on their little bodies. Is he/she (?) showing symptoms like hind leg weakness, or staring off into space? He was diagnosed in October, right? Did your vet advise you to feed him before administering medicine. That is also easier on his tummy. With Insulinoma, the key is keeping the Blood Glucose stable. Any sugars, grains, fruits will make the Blood Glucose unstable. He needs proteins, ferrets are obligate carnivores and eat meat The Duk soup is not a great product. It has chicken by products, garlic (which is controversial) and flaxseed and kelp. The protein content is pretty low. It also has liver high up in the ingredient list and liver can build up in their systems. Liver amounts are usually recommended to be 5 percent of their total weekly intake. I understand your concern about getting him to eat and how you will try anything to get nourishment in him. I have not dealt with Adrenal or kidney failure. Alot of our other ferrents have. Someone will see your post and offer some advice. I'll keep an eye out and make sure that it stays up front. What I would recommend is to make a soupie recipe. The soupie is balanced with the proper and required nutrients. You will have to sit with them, coax and persuade them, that this is food. Here is the recipe: 8 ounces of raw chicken thigh 1-2 chicken hearts 1/2 chicken liver 1/2 a teaspoon of dried eggshell powder. save your eggshells and let them dry for a day or two. Grind them into a fine powder. I use a clean coffee grinder that I bought for this purpose. A magic bullet or a blender will also work. This will store well in a dry tupperware container. Blend all of this up. You can freeze it in ice cube trays or store it in containers in the freezer. When you are ready to serve it, add some warm water to it. Your two will probably not each much at first. One or two ice cubes of soupie will probably be enough. Remember that this is not food to them. Sit on the floor with a towel and gently put one on your lap. Hold your hand underneath him or her. Take your finger and dab it on their lips, they will lick it off. If they try to jump down, pick them up and put them on your lap again. Have a small spoon ready and offer them some from the spoon. They may protest and act like this is poison. They really don't recognize this as food, so coaxing and persuasion is important. Keep trying, even if you have to do it off and on thru the day. It's super important that Mozart eats regularly to keep his BG up. Once they are eating the soup, you can leave it in their cage for them. The soup is fine for 6-8 hours and in this cold weather, even a little longer. If it gets a skin on it (like a pudding) add a little more warm water. They will probably prefer it thinner at first, then you can slowly thicken it. Don't hesitate to ask us questions and let us know how it goes. All my best wishes to your two little ones.
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Post by kia4evr on Dec 19, 2014 17:58:35 GMT -5
Thank you for your response. There is no way I will do raw. They will not touch it at all. Mozart is on Prednisolone and yes he eats before I give it to him. They were not symptomatic at all when we discovered these problems. I was doing routine blood work.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 18:09:28 GMT -5
We could help point you in the direction of a better quality kibble. The Forum is holistic in nature and our main goal is to find what's best for each ferret. Here is a link to a kibble chart and you can learn alot from it and it will help you find a good quality kibble. Most ferrents who offer kibble will find two different products and combine them. That way, when a product is recalled or discontinued, you have the other kibble and a finicky ferret will have something to eat. moredooks.herobo.com/ferretnutrition.phpIf you begin using a new kibble, you might want to mix some of their familiar kibble with the new in a container and let the smell become familiar to them. Then ease the old out and the new in. The other option would be Freeze dried raw, which has alot of the benefits of raw, but is dry and shaped like kibble. It's expensive however, and best served hydrated. Stella and Chewy's (feline version) has tummy, ticklin turkey and duck, duck, goose. It will have a higher protein content than kibble.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 18:23:08 GMT -5
How have you tried introducing raw? What are your concerns? We can help you address some of them. I really suggest you read this article, it's very helpful in understanding how Insulinoma works, and how a raw diet can help tremendously with it and prolong their life. docs.google.com/document/d/1Bth5xZH5LTlgQ5Pf2so0sxLaGGbgs3b4Z6Wld5kC884/edit?pli=1I've had 2 ferrets with Insulinoma, and lost both of them from it in the last 3 months. I fed high-quality kibble for 3 years, and switched to raw 4 months ago. Best decision I've ever made. Perhaps you can look into Freeze Dried Raw as poncesmom mentioned, it's balanced and much better for them than kibble, Natures Variety Minis is small like kibble, but I've heard great things about Stella & Chewys also. It's much more expensive than Frankenprey (grocery store bought meat). Duk Soup isn't good for them, I assume they used to eat kibble, what brand?
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Post by kia4evr on Dec 19, 2014 18:25:08 GMT -5
Thanks for the site link. I can't do higher protein due to Daisy's kidneys. As for cost, I need it to stay as low as possible.
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Post by kia4evr on Dec 19, 2014 18:29:03 GMT -5
They ate Epigen 90 before they got sick. They had also gotten E. Coli as well which I think happened when they changed their diet some. I do not have time to prep raw meat and frankly don't think it's effective. I have tried other kibble with lower protein percentage to no avail. These two will rather starve then eat. I am happy with the Duk soup because they eat it readily and it has helped get weight back on them. I just am interested in what can I add to the soup. Thank you
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 18:40:06 GMT -5
I spend $30 per month feeding two big 2.7 lb ferrets that eat 2-3x as much as others do, I spent $40 per month on kibble, I feed frankenprey, well am going that direction. You don't think it's effective, why? I'd like to show you a before and after picture of my boy before when he was on kibble, and after once I started raw. The before is on the left, and after is on the right, this change is after 2 months of no kibble. Fur is longer and softer (because he is hydrated and has the correct nutrition), and no, he did not gain weight, he lost 12 ounces. He was overweight before and now is perfect, he gained muscle and lost fat. Being on raw helped too much to describe with my last Insulinomic girl, it kept her BG more stable, it kept her hydrated (being on kibble always keeps them somewhat dehydrated), and it helped her gain weight. I'm not trying to shove raw down your throat or make you feed it, I just want you to understand how amazing a proper diet is and all the benefits it gives them. Do yours like Salmon Oil? Most ferrets go crazy for it, if you have some, you can crush up some kibble, just a little bit, and add to the soup and mix it in, then dip your finger in it and put a drop of salmon oil on your finger and let your ferrets lick it off, then see if they will take it from a spoon. Have you tried making the kibble into the same consistency as the duk soup? Something is wrong with my laptop and I cannot tag members, but when it's fixed I can tag some senior members who have dealt with Kidney issues and they can help with that.
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Post by Heather on Dec 19, 2014 18:41:23 GMT -5
The lack of effectiveness is a shortcoming of your perception. It's a known fact that a raw diet helps control blood sugar better than any kibble. Looking for "cheap" shortcuts to add to an already sketchy soupy (Marshals Duk soup is anything but good for ferrets) is not going to help you as you're still going to have to teach them to eat the new diet. You've been offered two different methods of providing and enriching their diet. There are very few kibble diets that are going to be what you're looking for. You need high end kibbles if you're going to be able to prolong these little ones lives and you're going to have to spend money. Most kibbles that are going to meet the nutritional requirements of your ferrets, are going to be high in protein. ciao
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Post by bitbyter on Dec 19, 2014 19:34:58 GMT -5
A raw diet is easier on the kidneys than any kibble. This is because the protein is so concentrated in kibble due to it being dry. Because raw is moist it is actually easier for them to digest and process, thus easier on their kidneys. Raw also hydrates ferrets as they are meant to be. Carnivores are meant to get most of their moisture from their food. They have a far lower thirst impulse than we do so do not drink very often. For this reason, kibble fed ferrets are always boarder line dehydrated. This alone is hard on their kidneys.
Lastly, for an obligate carnivore (such as ferrets), there is no such thing as a "low" protein diet. Think about it, it would be like saying a "low" fibre diet for a cow.
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Post by katt on Dec 19, 2014 20:53:19 GMT -5
The thing about raw is it is actually relatively LOW protein. Sounds counter-intuitive but in dry food the protein is very concentrated. Meat is primarily moisture - water. Animal cells are comprised of a very large % of water, so the proportion of relative protein in the tissue is actually quite low compared to kibble with its high protein low moisture content. In addition, dry food dehydrate where raw Hydrates - which significantly, significantly reduces the strain on the kidneys.
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Post by Kia4evr on Dec 19, 2014 21:36:54 GMT -5
I can try the freeze dried raw. Will see how that works. Won't be able to get that until this weekend
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Post by katt on Dec 19, 2014 21:47:37 GMT -5
FD is definitely a better option than kibble. Just be sure to hydrate it.
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Post by raynebc on Dec 20, 2014 16:22:47 GMT -5
If they don't eat wet freeze dried raw food at first, try crumbling up and mixing a little of it in their kibble in dry form. Keep this up for several days and they should eventually realize it's food. Increase the amount of freeze dried a little at a time. By the time my ferrets were eating mostly freeze dried, I was able to start training them to eat wet freeze dried one meal per day (in the evening, when I was able to spend plenty of time trying to feed them). Shortly after that I fed just wet freeze dried and dropped the kibble. From there they've been eating meat slivers and ground meat, and now I'm working on getting them to eat chopped up chicken wing.
When you're switching them to raw and they won't eat it, you will definitely have to out-stubborn them and use your finger to dab a little in their mouth or on the front of their mouth. At the beginning I would scruff them one at a time and when they yawned I would put a small dab of it in their mouth. This forces them to taste it and while they may not appreciate it, they should change their mind and come to like it once they get used to the taste and texture.
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Post by mjbez on Dec 20, 2014 16:54:32 GMT -5
I agree with the raw being the most beneficial. The "low protein" diets connected with kidney failure is outdated as well. Many vets still go with this however, they are not trained on nutrition. I have been researching (and found myself a more holistic vet) that agrees - raw and natural is the way to go for kidneys. I started all of this when I was doing research for my dog who is early stage renal failure. I refused to go kibble that they recommended. There is no way it is easier for kidneys to filter a processed mash of foods vs the raw meat options I provide. My now vet agrees. If you are willing to try Freeze dried would you be interested in commercial raw?
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