Causes of seizures

[Deleted]

Hi ferret-loving friends,

Has anyone's ferret experienced seizures that isn't connected to an insulinoma before? We have been spending a lot of time and money at the vets, but there is still no conclusive answer as to what the cause may be.

About Flo
A spade female, approximate age 6.
Part house ferret, part outside ferret.
Does play in the garden, digs under the shed. 

About her symptoms
She has been having fits, or fit-like symptoms for approximately 11 months.
Last summer we observed her staring into space. 
A typical episode (which lasts approximately 2 1/2 - 3 hours) looks like this:

• Stage 1 Physically fitting (tightening, jolting body - like she's being electrocuted), occasionally foaming/pawing at mouth - 10 minutes
• Stage 2 Goes very still, floppy, lifeless - 1 hour
• Stage 3 Becomes twitchy, scared, sensitive to movement and sound - 15 minutes
• Stage 4 Starts roaming around continually in a circuit, sniffing the room around the skirting boards, appears to have no vision (like she's blind). Sometime hind-leg weakness during this stage - 45 minutes
• Stage 5 Eats ravenously, drinks water a lot - 20 minutes
• Stage 6 Sleeps

Medical Treatment

• April - October 2014: Phenobarbitone for suspected epilepsy. Does stop fits initially.
• August - October 2014: Fits recommence.
• October 2014 - present: Gradual withdrawal of Phenobarbitone. Begins steroid treatment (Prednisolone) - based on theory that it may be insulinoma

Test Results

• January 2014 *White blood count test* treated with antibiotics suspected infection 
  
• January 2014 *Glucose* normal
• September 2014 *Full hematology & biology screening* normal
• September - November *Insulin/Glucose bloods x 3* insulin, normal; glucose, lower-end of normal 

Next Steps
Another blood test scheduled to screen for brain parasites, and another for a disease spread by rats urine.

My question is:
Does anyone recognise these symptoms?

She is the most gentle ferret who just wants a quiet, happy time. We just want her to be stable and healthy! Here is a cute picture of her.

Thank you!

Tara, Sean & Flo.

[bitbyter]

If not insulinoma related then other possible causes are:

• Neurological issues (brain tumour for example)
  
• FIP (but is usually only young ferrets)
• Exposure to a toxin of some kind

More seizure info here

Unfortunately at the age of 6 if it isn't insulinoma, it is most likely something neurological in my limited opinion. Further evidence in that direction is that the Phenobarbitone helped initially for a while but then became ineffective. Any type of major organ involvement (other than brain / central nervous system) or infection, the vet should have noticed by now with testing. I'll tag some of the other experienced mentors / admins and see if they have some other possibilities...

Sherry, Heather, katt

[Deleted]

I'm very sorry about Flo. She is just beautiful.

I do recognize those symptoms. They sound like Insulinoma.
Did your Vet do a fasting bloodwork? There are some differing opinions as to what constitutes the proper BG levels.
Each of those symptoms are a sign that her BG has crashed.

Prednisolone is not a short term medicine like antibiotics. Insulinoma does not go away. With proper management of her Insulinoma, Flo can gain more time and have a better quality of life. However, that means that you need to be her health advocate. You would want to get familiar with the signs and symptoms and learn how to keep her Blood Glucose stable.

Here is a link to an Overview of Insulinoma:

holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/2702/insulinoma-overview

I found the Forum looking for help for my Ponce. He was six and I suspected Insulinoma. The problem was that we had just moved and couldn't find a ferret savvy vet. That can make all the difference in the world. Most vets will see ferrets, but usually deal with cats and dogs and do not have adequate education on ferrets. You want a exotic vet specialist who understands Insulinoma, Adrenal, IBD and deals with mostly ferrets.
I lost my Ponce to Lymphoma at almost seven.

When Flo has a seizure, dab a little Karo syrup on her gums. Karo is faster acting than honey. While you want to avoid any sugary foods or treats, the Karo will help stop the seizure and should only be used for that.
You want to avoid any sugary foods to help keep her BG stable. What diet is she on now?

You have all my best wishes. Please keep us updated. We have alot of ferrents on the forum who have dealt with all manner of medical issues and they will pop in also.

(dance)

[bitbyter]

@poncesmom they already tested for insulinoma.

[Deleted]

Nov 24, 2014 15:58:21 GMT -5 bitbyter said:

@poncesmom they already tested for insulinoma.

I saw that, however I worry about the:
 September - November *Insulin/Glucose bloods x 3* insulin, normal; glucose, lower-end of normal

and I didn't see where the test was fasting.
 From what I've been reading, there is alot of debate about what constitutes Normal Blood Glucose and differing opinions on how low BG levels actually have to be to diagnose Insulinoma.

I sincerely hope that I'm wrong.
 My own experience with my Ponce was very similar. The first tests early in January came back normal. His symptoms disappeared and then came back in March. We tested again and found the results were positive for Insulinoma. That's also when we found the Lymphoma.

[unclejoe]

I'd agree that a fasting glucose test should be done. I know that ferrets can adjust to lower glucose levels over time, but those signs are classic insulinoma. How is her appetite? Has she lost any weight? Most vets in the States diagnose insulinoma with a BG of 70 mg/dL or less, but "normal" is 80-120. Some consider below 80 suspicious. Fast should be 3-4 hrs, but not more, as if it is insulinoma you don't want to cause a crash by not feeding. Our Kahlua lived 6 months with a BG below 40.

[Deleted]

Thank you all for your in depth replies. She has had fasting glucose tests at 4 and 6 hours. I will get the actual reported levels from my vet tomorrow and post. Thank you @poncesmom bitbyter unclejoe, I can see you love your fuzzies as much as we do. Good night from Brighton x

[katt]

What are her Calcium, Phosphorus, and Vitamin D levels? Hyperparathyroidism (or Hypo I'm totally spacing which can cause seizures also.

[Deleted]

I hope she's ok.
I am here to learn actually... but my first thought while reading...is what happened when babies had chewed on chips of paint with lead in it years ago, seizures I think. Hopefully they find what is causing it & can get her healed! If not...maybe she is chewing on something in the yard? Just a thought from a new person here.

[katt]

Nov 24, 2014 16:14:03 GMT -5 @poncesmom said:

Nov 24, 2014 15:58:21 GMT -5 bitbyter said:

@poncesmom they already tested for insulinoma.

I saw that, however I worry about the:
 September - November *Insulin/Glucose bloods x 3* insulin, normal; glucose, lower-end of normal

and I didn't see where the test was fasting.
 From what I've been reading, there is alot of debate about what constitutes Normal Blood Glucose and differing opinions on how low BG levels actually have to be to diagnose Insulinoma.

I sincerely hope that I'm wrong.
 My own experience with my Ponce was very similar. The first tests early in January came back normal. His symptoms disappeared and then came back in March. We tested again and found the results were positive for Insulinoma. That's also when we found the Lymphoma.

I second this. Yes they have stopped "recommending" fasting BG tests but our definition of a BG that is diagnostic of insulinoma is dependent on the FASTING BG. Yes, if their non fasting BG is in insu range then they clearly have it but this also means that many early insu ferrets will get missed because we say "BG looks fine" but it's only fine bc they have elevated BG from their last meal. Really vets should be working on developing a non-fasting range for insu if they aren't going to do fasting BG tests - otherwise a lot of cases will be missed that could have been caught and treated earlier. I would really consider doing a fasting BG - especially considering the BG was on the LOW end of normal on a NON fasting test. :/

[Heather]

Has this little one had an xray done of upper spine and skull. I've had two ferrets who appeared to exhibit insulinoma type symptoms. One actually displayed a lower BG. Lady Zena, had recurring seizures over a period of several months. None of the meds appeared to treat the issue for any long period of time. She finally had a massive seizure that we couldn't seem to get her out of. She did come out of the seizure while on the trip to the vet but was euthanized when an xray was taken of her upper spine and skull. A tumour was found at the base of her skull and spine. Lady Calypso also developed a staggering type gait, star gazing attitude. BG was borderline, so she was given a low dose of pediapred. She didn't improve so her BG was retaken....there was no change. Her pediapred was increased but her health didn't improve. Xrays were taken and a spinal tumour was found.
This is only my experience with a couple of "insulinoma" ferrets who weren't actually insulinoma but exhibited insulinoma type symptoms.
ciao

[katt]

I hope that's not it Heather but it is definitely possible. These creatures are little cancer factories.

If you are concerned about the risk of doing a true fasting BG, ask your vet if they will at least try a dose of pred to see if it helps.

[Deleted]

Nov 24, 2014 23:41:53 GMT -5 Heather said:

Has this little one had an xray done of upper spine and skull. I've had two ferrets who appeared to exhibit insulinoma type symptoms. One actually displayed a lower BG. Lady Zena, had recurring seizures over a period of several months. None of the meds appeared to treat the issue for any long period of time. She finally had a massive seizure that we couldn't seem to get her out of. She did come out of the seizure while on the trip to the vet but was euthanized when an xray was taken of her upper spine and skull. A tumour was found at the base of her skull and spine. Lady Calypso also developed a staggering type gait, star gazing attitude. BG was borderline, so she was given a low dose of pediapred. She didn't improve so her BG was retaken....there was no change. Her pediapred was increased but her health didn't improve. Xrays were taken and a spinal tumour was found.
This is only my experience with a couple of "insulinoma" ferrets who weren't actually insulinoma but exhibited insulinoma type symptoms.
ciao

Hi heather, no she hasn't but it would definitely be an option to explore. Thanks so much. Will let you know how she gets on.

[Deleted]

Nov 25, 2014 5:01:20 GMT -5 katt said:

I hope that's not it Heather but it is definitely possible. These creatures are little cancer factories.

If you are concerned about the risk of doing a true fasting BG, ask your vet if they will at least try a dose of pred to see if it helps.

Yes that's definitely an option to consider, TY :thumbup:

[Deleted]

Nov 24, 2014 23:41:53 GMT -5 Heather said:

Has this little one had an xray done of upper spine and skull. I've had two ferrets who appeared to exhibit insulinoma type symptoms. One actually displayed a lower BG. Lady Zena, had recurring seizures over a period of several months. None of the meds appeared to treat the issue for any long period of time. She finally had a massive seizure that we couldn't seem to get her out of. She did come out of the seizure while on the trip to the vet but was euthanized when an xray was taken of her upper spine and skull. A tumour was found at the base of her skull and spine. Lady Calypso also developed a staggering type gait, star gazing attitude. BG was borderline, so she was given a low dose of pediapred. She didn't improve so her BG was retaken....there was no change. Her pediapred was increased but her health didn't improve. Xrays were taken and a spinal tumour was found.
This is only my experience with a couple of "insulinoma" ferrets who weren't actually insulinoma but exhibited insulinoma type symptoms.
ciao

I'm so sorry to hear about your poor Lady Zena too x