Kibble / Raw Diet (Newbie here!)

[Deleted]

Hi all!,

I'm new to the forum and I could talk with some of the members regarding the issues where I live in order to open the possibility of a Raw Diet (which seemed very difficult regarding sanitary issues).
Good news! I could get a farm that sells supervised (rigurous control check from the government) and controlled Chickens and eggs! (including livers, hearts, necks, etc). They even breed them in a natural way and less industrial way (free). YEY!. This is their website just in case some other people from my country comes around: www.coeco.com.ar/

I've some newbie questions:

1) Is there a diet which mix a % of kibble and raw meat? (I usually take them with me on holidays when we travel by car, and that makes more complex the raw feeding. They really enjoy digging the beach.). 
2) Is chicken enough? I've seen the frankenprey diets, I couldn't find yet a safe source of chicken but not rabbits, etc.

I'll keep checking the forum and probably come with more questions (and eventually apply for a mentoring program if available ).
This could be a great solution in case we get the imports of kibble completely blocked also (besides the health improvements).

Greets to all!

[Heather]

Unfortunately, if you're going to feed raw you're going to have to find more than one protein source. To do this properly you need a minimum of 3 proteins one of them being a red meat. I personally cannot recommend feeding kibbles and raw, it defeats the purpose but some do it.
As far as travel, feeding raw is simple....there is meat at every grocery store and that's all it takes. My guys travel frequently and feeding them is the least of my worries. I have greater concerns about water availability (without chlorine, bottled water works fine) than I do about buying meats.
Good luck with your research
Ciao

[Sherry]

Just buy the meat from the grocery store and feed.

[Deleted]

Heather Sherry
Thanks for the patience. I know my questions perhaps might have been seen a lot around here. And most come from our personal fear (maybe silly) of feeding them anything that can hurt them (instead the real goal, which is giving them the most natural life they deserve).
My research went very well, I could find a source where I can get whole european quill and eggs. Whole rabbit and rabbit liver (this one is by request). Whole duck, duck fat and duck liver. Beside the farm chicken which is around 2 - 3 times bigger than the normal one. All this just few blocks from my place!.
They even have frog legs! which was a big surprise. And they keep everything in great shape.
Tonight they got some quill egg and love it.
Im also going to talk with their Vet regarding to switching to a full raw diet and the stool controls we should do from point 0 to the goal.
And again all the help I can get from you is the key. Is hard to make them accept raw feeding, but maybe It's harder to make the human accept that just need to stop over-worry.
Please be patient with the human! Dooks and kisses from us all!.

[Sherry]

Ask away That is why we are here. And just so you are aware, not a lot of vets are behind raw feeding and most will try to scare you away from it. The ONLY dietary instruction most get while in school is done by Hill's pet food company.

[Deleted]

Well finally our worst nightmare came true, and there is a possibility that we are not even going to get Marshall in some future (that's the only ferret food over here, the kitten kibble ones are even worse than Marshall. The best ones are Royal Canin and Eukanuba, but their recipes are different from the US containing even more grains :/). So the Raw is more going to be a must eventually. I still have plenty kibble left but I already ordered different meats to keep in the freezer (chicken liver, chicken hearts and full chicken, rabbit liver, duck, and quills. Im also going to start drying some boiled eggshells for the calcium). I know it will take long, specially with two kibble picky marshall ferrets. But I could manage to get them cooked treats somehow (liver, chicken and heart), so I hope eventually this will happen. I've been reading Bob Church articles and some of the post in the group that really helps with the starters fears.

Now comes the questions:

1) I read that the best start is with soups and found a great video from a member on youtube (I read a lot about soup but couldn't imagine actually how they were "done" in practice therms). Some even mix them with furotone / ferretone. My little ones accepted better the "Marshall Duck Soup" when trying to get in new things "soupy like" rather than furotone (thats how I could get them to raw eggs at first). Is that a posibility as a "flavor" to cheat them in the first raw soups?.

2) Even though they are only 1yr old (Beside the little kit Im babysitting this month), they already had blood check and ultrasound done. One of them has the Uremia a little high, something that we were doing a control with a supplemental kitten kibble in low %. What is recommended for a ferret with the Uremia around 70-80? (where it should be around 50). Should I better wait until checking it came back to normal? (I should get him a blood check in short). It's not that high but still some numbers up. The good part is that both have the adrenal glands in good shape. Anyways its good to know if there is some diets specifically for this cases .

3) I've seen that most recommends soup at morning and then kibble. But I've seen a lot of different options as a start point. So I just wanted to know which is the best start for picky eaters and how to make the transition the less extreme for them (specially knowing how their tummys react to anything new).
They eat cooked liver, cooked heart and cooked chicken already as treats (liver and heart around 10 days, not so often). But that's all.

4) I've seen that is a good way to keep some parasites away to freeze the raw meats before offering to them. This advice was given in some Spanish groups as well. I should prepare the portions for the starter soups sin ziplock bags and try this way?. Im not in a hurry to start, I just want to take the most cautions steps .

5) All the starter soups where full chicken, is that right? We should start with one type of meat then start adding different ones?. There is too many information around and I got a bit confused .

Thanks a lot for all the help!

[raynebc]

I'll take a stab at some of those questions:
1. If you can't get them to eat the soup right away, mixing it with something they're already used to eating (even ground up kibble) can help. Before dropping the kibble, I was mixing it with freeze dried raw. Then I started getting them to eat re-hydrated freeze dried raw. At this point, my ferrets are eating the raw chicken soup recipe (with a thickness similar to pudding) mixed with the re-hydrated freeze dried raw.

3. At the beginning I was worried they wouldn't eat enough, so I gave them kibble during the day. During the evening when I'd be home to check on them frequently and have time to hand/spoon feed them, I gave them raw. Gradually I got them to start eating out of the plate, but I still leave the spoon on the dish when I feed them. It makes it easier to stir the food up and they also recognize the sound of the spoon tapping on the plate as a "dinner bell."

4. Deep freezing will kill most parasites, but not bacteria.

5. Chicken is supposed to be easy for most ferrets to get used to in the beginning. If you can't find certain chicken organs, you can substitute the organ from another animal (ie. 1 oz. beef heart instead of chicken heart).

[Deleted]

raynebc Thank you!!

I've everything ready to start with the raw soup. Ill try to mix it with furo-tone at first and see how it goes. If they still dont touch it maybe I can try with the Marshall Duck Soup.

8oz chicken breast (raw)
1 chicken liver (raw)
1-2 chicken hearts or 1oz other heart (raw)
1/4-1/2 tsp crushed egg shell or bone meal

I'll probably go with the crushed dried egg shell at first and I'll remove their kibble 2hs before giving them a try.
What's the best recomendation the first days?. Trying them to eat the soup (mixed till all natural is accepted) and then leave the kibble the rest of the day just in case?.
There should be some rest between raw soup days until they get their stomach in shape to fully accept raw?
I found a lot of recipes and menues but not (or maybe / probably I missed it) one that explains all the steps - days, specially with very picky eaters (I've check some journals too).
Most of the first days raw soups I've seen are made with chicken. Should I start the "frankenprey" with the raw soups too?.
I'm exited to start and very hopefull they will accept it eventually!.
Oh and any advice on ferrets with a little higher uremia? (he is 78 mg/dl and he should be 12-43mg/dl, we are giving him a small % of a kitten renal food and it went down slowly (vet recommendation). I still have to do him another blood checkup at the end of the month)
Thank you all in advance!!!
Sherry Heather

[raynebc]

Probably start with 1/2 tsp egg shell or bone meal. I had to increase the recipe to 3/4 tsp bone meal because my ferrets' poops were a bit watery. I got a coffee grinder and ground up a bunch of egg shells, but it was kind of a hassle so I decided to get bone meal instead. It isn't raw, but people on the forum have said it's more nutritious than the egg shell.

Trying to get them to eat the soup off your finger is a good first step, frankenprey is an advanced diet that ferrets seem to have to graduate to. At first they probably won't appreciate it at all, mine didn't. From what I've read on the forum, it's best to keep the soup introduction going for consecutive days. Some people use the "scruff and sample" method, but ferrets often resist that. It may be less stressful to hold them in your lap and then dab a little bit of the soup onto the front of their mouth with your finger. They might bolt away from you at first, but eventually they'll lick it off and find out what it tastes like. The hungrier they get, the better that soup will start to taste to them. If they get to the point they lick it off your finger, you can try spoon feeding them so they can eat more at a time. If they don't drink more than a couple drops' worth, I've read it's OK to give them their kibble back afterward without a 2 hour waiting period, otherwise they need to wait to get their kibble back after you're done trying to give them the soup.

I don't know anything about uremia, but I'm sure the experts you tagged in your post will be able to point you in the right direction.

[Deleted]

Thank you again @raynebec! I've everything ready in ziploc bags in the freezer to have some final "parasites killing" process (8 livers, 9 hearts, 6 chicken necks, 1kg chicken wings and 1kg chicken breast boneless).
Raw quill egg was a success (all raw egg without any addition. In the past with furotone and soups it was always accepted) with the finger feeding method. The scruff and force made them eat but made them step back from it after. Now they eat quill eggs without anything, almost directly from the dish (spoon and spoon still in the dish). All this in almost two shots. One of them got a bit stressed with the "Scruff try" method. The finger method was greatly accepted the second time and start to like it .
I hope to be as lucky with the raw soup but I'm ready to a long patience process .

[gfountain]

Hi @nayse! Your babies are still young, so they should take to the raw food fairly easily. You said you have all your soup ingredients right? Blend your ingredients: 8 oz chicken meat only, 1 oz heart, 1 oz liver, 1/2 tsp eggshell powder or bonemeal, enough water to keep from destroying your blender or food processor. Put this mixture into ice cube trays (do you have those in Argentina?) and freeze. Then just thaw a cube as you need it. Mix it with some warm water so it's very soupy. Sit with them on the floor and start dabbing it on their noses. This is called 'grab and dab' rather than 'scruff and stuff'. They'll learn to like the taste as they lick it off, and hopefully will come asking for more. This process, learning to like the soup, can take a while (possibly even weeks) so be prepared to be patient and CONSISTENT. Do it every day, several times a day if possible. Once they're eating it from a spoon or your finger, it will be time to teach them to eat it from a dish. Get them a flat dish rather than a bowl. You'll lower your finger or spoon to the dish a little further each time until they're eating directly from the dish. Until they're eating an appropriate amount of soup (depending on gender, generally 2-3 ounces per day), you'll have to leave kibble available for them. Just make sure there are a few hours between the time you give them soup and when they have kibble available. Then once they're on full raw soup, you can start introducing slivers and work your way up to a full frankenprey menu.

Good luck! Keep us posted on their progress.

[Deleted]

gfountain thanks for the tips!
Im going to keep a journal of each progress I get, and start a post when the raw soup begins! I already know how stubborn they can be. At first the only thing they accepted was marshall, time to time I could introduce cooked chicken and chicken liver as treats. It was hard but they accepted the cooked ones time to time, hope to be lucky with the raw as well.
Gladly our exotic vet "seems" to be open to natural diet since he also does follow ups on native mustelids we have here as the galactic cuja (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesser_grison). He has some American Minks as patients too. I just hope his experience with them make him open to other diets with the domestic ones.

[Deleted]

@nayse, if you create a Thread under Diet Transitions and title it Nayse Switching Threads, all of the Mentors will look over it and offer tips and suggestions. We can help you keep it balanced. I saw that you said you would start a post, I just wasn't sure that you meant to create a switching thread, so I wanted to mention this.

You're very lucky to have a Vet who approves of a natural diet. That really makes Ferrenting easier.

A side note: I'm very impressed with your English.

[Deleted]

@poncesmom thank you!! Yes I meant to start a switching thread!
Thanks for all the help everyone! .