Vary in Prey used/Sources of Omega 3s?

[Deleted]

Hi, I'm fairly new to ferret keeping and feeding them whole prey and plan to feed my ferrets whole prey, but I've read up a lot on it in the forums and have learned so much! I do have three (well, more lol) questions that I kinda have answers to, but not quite full ones that I need.

I plan on primarily feeding my ferrets degutted rabbit, and supplementing with a local butcher's raw pet food with bone in it (it's primarily meant for dogs and cats, but is just pure uncooked meat with bone in it) and supplementing with parts of a whole heart/heart bits treats. Is this a good diet for them, or should I be throwing in varying animals? I want to make sure they get enough bone, muscle meat, and taurine from hearts. I plan on following parts of the frankenprey menu that's in the google docs for newbies to raw feeding.

Also, I've seen people talking about how to get Omega 3's/etc for their ferrets. Is there a food besides fish I can be feeding them to make sure they get what they need, or a fairly inexpensive fish that would meet their need? If I get fish oil, do I put it into their food or their water? Would raw eggs supply what they need? (I do plan on giving a raw egg 2-3 times a week even if it doesn't supply the Omega 3's)

Is live feeding worth it, or will toys and interaction with me and the other ferret be enough for their stimulation?

Thank you!

[racheld]

Ferrets need at least three protein sources, and they need some organ meat in their diet. So you may need to look into more protein sources.
As far as live feeding, it generally only lasts a minute or two, so it doesn't provide that much stimulation. Not more than you or other ferrets can provide in play. And if it takes more that a couple of minutes for your ferret to finish the kill, it's unnecessarily cruel to live feed that animal.

[Deleted]

Aug 18, 2014 12:47:44 GMT -5 racheld said:

Ferrets need at least three protein sources, and they need some organ meat in their diet. So you may need to look into more protein sources.
As far as live feeding, it generally only lasts a minute or two, so it doesn't provide that much stimulation. Not more than you or other ferrets can provide in play. And if it takes more that a couple of minutes for your ferret to finish the kill, it's unnecessarily cruel to live feed that animal.

Thanks! I was looking into guinea pigs and possibly quails, the only issue is that while I can find raw quail in my area as well as duck, the only other form of whole prey available is feeder mice. The meat that's meant for pets at my local butcher's comes in different packs for different animals and some with bone and without, so I could easily get one that's beef, one that's chicken, one that's pork, etc.

While looking for places to get uncooked hearts and livers, I could barely find what I was looking for, but a lot of places in my area have alligator tails and kangaroo meat. It'd be interesting to see how a ferret reacts to that taste lol.

I'm worried about live feeding for that reason- I understand ferrets are carnivorous animals, but I don't want to be cruel to another animal in that way if my ferret doesn't kill it quickly or just plays with it. I'm sure I could step in if need be, but I'd rather avoid that all together if possible.

[racheld]

Have you looked at any raw sources online? There are quite a few good ones, at least in the US. I like Hare Today and My Pet Carnivore.

[raynebc]

Pet stores that sell certain reptiles will often sell feeder rodents that have already been humanely killed.

[racheld]

There's also someone on here who breeds mice to feed to their ferrets. You could do that and kill them yourself before feeding, if you were up for it. That takes extra time and money though.

[Deleted]

I'm not allowed to raise mice or rats of any kind, but there a lot of places in my area to buy feeder mice from. I'd just have an issue with keeping them, and if I were to feed live it would mainly only be as a big treat that may take the place of a meal? I would find a way to keep them if it was major stimulation, but they're more expensive and not that much more stimulating than what I can do with them/another ferret can do.

I'd really only buy meat online if the shipping wasn't insane and more than what I'd be paying for the meat- there are these little heart treats/snacks that are on amazon I plan to get though. I'd definitely love to buy from places like rodentpro, but shipping is just too much when I can hopefully find what I need in my area.

[msav]

Right now rodent pro is having a $35 flat rate shipping. I always wait until shipping is on sale to order from them. I refuse to pay $70 shipping.

they seem to have the sale around the time I need to restock. I have been lucky.

Their prices are generally good enough to offset the shipping cost.  But you have to spend enough to fill a box. that generally runs me anywhere from $112 - $150 including shipping

here is a break down of my last order


10 Rats: Large @ $1.50 ($15.00)

9 Chickens: Extra Large (XL) @ $2.25 ($20.25)

15 Quail: 8 Week @ $1.65 ($24.75)

1 Rabbits: Large @ $10.00 ($10.00)

50 Rats: Pups @ $.75 ($37.50)



Sub-Total: $107.50



S&H: $35.00 (Cost of packing materials, dry ice, and insurance are included.)



Order Total: $142.50

[Sherry]

Here is a weekly menu plan holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/146/meat-bone-organ-weekly-menu
As for live feeding, not a thing wrong with it, and many ferrets truly do get a ton of stimulation from it. Check out our live feeding board in the diet section: holisticferret60.proboards.com/board/34/live-feeding
Some simply dislike the whole idea Personally the ONLY reason I don't live feed is I cannot bring myself to kill anything. Meaning if the ferret botches the kill the mouse would suffer. If I knew for a fact ahead of time it would go well I'd have no issues with it. katt often live feeds. She could likely tell you more.

[katt]

Hi, I'm fairly new to ferret keeping and feeding them whole prey and plan to feed my ferrets whole prey, but I've read up a lot on it in the forums and have learned so much! I do have three (well, more lol) questions that I kinda have answers to, but not quite full ones that I need.
I plan on primarily feeding my ferrets degutted rabbit, and supplementing with a local butcher's raw pet food with bone in it (it's primarily meant for dogs and cats, but is just pure uncooked meat with bone in it) and supplementing with parts of a whole heart/heart bits treats. Is this a good diet for them, or should I be throwing in varying animals? I want to make sure they get enough bone, muscle meat, and taurine from hearts. I plan on following parts of the frankenprey menu that's in the google docs for newbies to raw feeding.

I'm a bit confused by all this. You are going to feed them "degutted rabbit?" As in, rabbit with NO organs? And supplement with other meats? That isn't a whole prey diet. Rabbit is great, but what you are talking about sounds more like a Frankenprey diet. A Frankenprey diet is perfectly acceptable, and is what most people here feed. Just trying to clarify the difference between whole prey vs frankenprey and figure out which is your goal.

A whole prey diet would mean you are feeding your ferrets almost strictly whole prey.

A Frankenprey diet (also called raw diet, BARF, or RMB) means you would be feeding them a menu meant to mimic the proportions of whole prey by using more easily accessible meats - such as rabbit meat and bones, chicken, pork, beef, etc.

You can feed a mix of whole prey and Frankenprey (some whole prey is better than none! ), you just have to adjust your menu to keep it balanced.

A "meal" is food eaten in 24 hours - so am meal = breakfast and food eaten during the day, pm meal = dinner and food eaten overnight. Thus in a single week they get 14 meals a week.

On a Frankenprey diet, they need to get 1.5 meals a week of heart meat, 1.5 meals a week of organ meat (at least half of which should be liver, the rest other hormone secreting organs such as kidney, spleen, etc), 7-9 meals containing Significant amounts of EDIBLE bone (e.g. chicken wings, turkey ribs, cornish game hen, etc). The rest of the meals are boneless, non-heart muscle meats (gizzards, pork, beef, etc). They need a BARE MINIMUM of 3 different muscle meat proteins (and preferably at least 2 different protein sources each for heart, organs, and bone) - for example chicken, pork, and beef would count as 3 different proteins.

So remember that the idea behind frankenprey diets is to mimic the proportions they would get eating a whole prey diet. A whole prey meal is COMPLETELY balanced, so when you feed whole prey, you actually remove that meal from your total meal-count and readjust your %'s accordingly. Feeding 1-2 meals a week of whole prey will not significantly alter the balance and you would count them as bone-in meals and keep the heart and organ the same. If you feed say 3-4 meals a week of whole prey though, now you are down to only 10 meals left to balance. So now instead of feeding 1.5 meals of organ and 1.5 meals of heart to make 10%, you would cut back to only One meal of each. My guess is for the price of whole prey and whole animal grinds they won't be getting more than 4 meals a week of whole prey, but if they did you would keep going with the same pattern of adjusting the balance when you have a Significant change in balance due to the addition of the whole prey. Let me know if that makes sense or if you have any Q's.

Also, I've seen people talking about how to get Omega 3's/etc for their ferrets. Is there a food besides fish I can be feeding them to make sure they get what they need, or a fairly inexpensive fish that would meet their need? If I get fish oil, do I put it into their food or their water? Would raw eggs supply what they need? (I do plan on giving a raw egg 2-3 times a week even if it doesn't supply the Omega 3's)

Rule of thumb for egg is No More than 1-2 whole chicken eggs (or equivalent - I think 3-4 Quail eggs roughly = 1 chicken egg, 1 duck egg = 2-3 chicken eggs) per ferret, per week - I wouldn't give more than 1 per ferret per week unless they are shedding. During shedding season you can give up to 2-3 eggs per ferret per week, but watch to make sure they don't get too much runny poop and cut back if they do or you are facing an increased risk of prolapse.

You don't HAVE to give ANY supplements if you are feeding a properly balanced and varied raw diet. That said, a little extra fatty omegas is never a bad thing. Especially since there is some evidence that domestically raised meats may be lower in some omegas than wile foods would be (I forget if it was Omega 3 or 6 though). Anyways, salmon oil is the best, fish oil is a very very close second. Olive Oil provides antioxidants and may help to prevent ulcers. Rule of thumb for oils is no more than 1tsp of any/all oil per ferret per week. That can be given in one dose, or stretched out in smaller doses every few days. Again, as with egg if your ferrets are having troubles with soft stools then you need to cut back the amount of oil that you are giving.

Is live feeding worth it, or will toys and interaction with me and the other ferret be enough for their stimulation?

This is entirely up to you and how you feel about feeding live. Is feeding live necessary? Definitely not. You can absolutely provide plenty of mental and physical stimulation without feeding live prey. That said, live feeding does provide wonderful enrichment that really encourages their natural instincts and abilities. I feed live prey and am more than happy to discuss the pros and cons of it with you. However, not everyone likes or agrees with live prey and this is not the live prey board. I would be more than happy to discuss it with you in the Live Feeding Board or via PM.

www.holisticferret60.proboards.com/board/34/live-feeding

[Deleted]

I will be feeding a whole prey diet if I can- and by degutted rabbit (as with any other whole prey animal I would feed) I mean without the intestines and stomach, but with all other organs and meat. I've seen on here that the ferrets don't really eat the intestines/stomach but rather play with it and hide and I'd rather not have that, however if it's better to include the intestines I guess I could and monitor them and what they do with the intestines/stomach?

I would "supplement" with what is 100% raw and 100% one animal food (i.e. there is one made from only beef, one that is just chicken, etc) that has edible bone from that animal in it as well. If I was feeding them a whole mouse or rat or something as small, I would probably provide a small amount of this as well- so I guess I would be giving a hybrid diet of frankenprey and whole prey? I also would give them hearts, edible bone, organ meat, muscle meat, etc as needed with the frankenprey.

I didn't know that about eggs! Thank you, I will only be giving one a week then. Same with the oils, I don't want to be giving too much or too little of something.

I do want to monitor what my ferrets are getting in terms of taurine/hearts, egg, omega 3's and 6's, muscle meat, organ meat, bones, etc to make sure they are getting enough and not too much/too little. I understand what you mean with the proportions and what frankenprey meals count as and what whole prey meals count as. I want to be able to feed them primarily whole prey, but may end up that every other day they get either frankenprey or whole prey, and will get whole prey two days in a row or frankenprey two days in a row.

So for whole prey days, I would give them one whole small prey in the morning, one at night or half of large whole prey in morning, other half at night. Is that still considered whole prey, or does that enter frankenprey territory? And as for frankprey days, I'd follow the frankprey menu that Sherry has created to fill in any gaps that may exist- maybe they need heart, maybe they need bone, etc. I would definitely plan the week out in advance to make sure all meals are complete.

I understand I'm not always the best at explaining, so let me give you a lil menu that I would possibly use? When I say "raw pet food" it's the 100% raw meat, mixture of organ and muscle meat, with edible bone in it that a local butcher provides. It's meant for dogs/cats on raw diets, but fulfills all the requirements for what a ferret needs and has nothing dangerous to them.

Mon AM- one whole rat, Mon PM- one whole rat
Tues AM- 4 oz of raw pet food (beef), Tues PM- 4 oz of raw pet food (beef)
Wed AM- half of whole rabbit, Wed PM- other half of whole rabbit
Thur AM- 4 oz of raw pet food (pork), with Omega 3/6 oil, Thur PM- 4 oz of raw pet food (pork)
Fri AM- One whole rat, Fri PM- one whole rat
Sat AM- 4 oz of raw pet food (chicken), with egg, Sat PM- 4 oz of raw pet food (chicken)
Sun AM- 4 oz of raw pet food (beef), Sun PM- one whole rat

*I may not have the proportions right for two ferrets to eat, but a cat generally eats 4 oz of the raw pet food in the AM, another 4 oz at nighttime. I may supplement the pet food with some extra bone or heart or organ/muscle meat if need be. I'll do more research in proportions before getting my ferrets, such as if one whole rat is too much/not enough, and if not enough I could put in an ounce or two of the raw pet food

I'm really on the fence with live feeding just for pricing and stimulation it provides. I'll definitely take my questions and concerns to the live feeding board though so I can get more in-depth with it.

Thank you so much hurricanekatt!

[katt]

I will be feeding a whole prey diet if I can- and by degutted rabbit (as with any other whole prey animal I would feed) I mean without the intestines and stomach, but with all other organs and meat. I've seen on here that the ferrets don't really eat the intestines/stomach but rather play with it and hide and I'd rather not have that, however if it's better to include the intestines I guess I could and monitor them and what they do with the intestines/stomach?

Oooh okay! lol Makes total sense now. You are correct - they usually don't eat the intestines AND that makes for super stinky meals if those are left in (remove the bladder too). >_< Definitely want to get those out.

I would "supplement" with what is 100% raw and 100% one animal food (i.e. there is one made from only beef, one that is just chicken, etc) that has edible bone from that animal in it as well. If I was feeding them a whole mouse or rat or something as small, I would probably provide a small amount of this as well- so I guess I would be giving a hybrid diet of frankenprey and whole prey? I also would give them hearts, edible bone, organ meat, muscle meat, etc as needed with the frankenprey.

Ah okay. So you just need to make sure that all of the non whole prey meals balance out with each other to achieve the 10% heart, 10% organ ratio. Bone is determined mostly by poops - too soft means they need more bone, too hard or dry means they are getting too much bone.


I didn't know that about eggs! Thank you, I will only be giving one a week then. Same with the oils, I don't want to be giving too much or too little of something.


So for whole prey days, I would give them one whole small prey in the morning, one at night or half of large whole prey in morning, other half at night. Is that still considered whole prey, or does that enter frankenprey territory? And as for frankprey days, I'd follow the frankprey menu that Sherry has created to fill in any gaps that may exist- maybe they need heart, maybe they need bone, etc. I would definitely plan the week out in advance to make sure all meals are complete.

Sounds like you ant to do roughly half commercially ground raw and half whole prey so you'd be feeding a Commercial Raw and Whole Prey diet.

I understand I'm not always the best at explaining, so let me give you a lil menu that I would possibly use? When I say "raw pet food" it's the 100% raw meat, mixture of organ and muscle meat, with edible bone in it that a local butcher provides. It's meant for dogs/cats on raw diets, but fulfills all the requirements for what a ferret needs and has nothing dangerous to them.


Are you certain of the heart and organ %'s in the grinds? I'd figure out what they are just to be sure.

Mon AM- one whole rat, Mon PM- one whole rat
Tues AM- 4 oz of raw pet food (beef), Tues PM- 4 oz of raw pet food (beef)
Wed AM- half of whole rabbit, Wed PM- other half of whole rabbit
Thur AM- 4 oz of raw pet food (pork), with Omega 3/6 oil, Thur PM- 4 oz of raw pet food (pork)
Fri AM- One whole rat, Fri PM- one whole rat
Sat AM- 4 oz of raw pet food (chicken), with egg, Sat PM- 4 oz of raw pet food (chicken)
Sun AM- 4 oz of raw pet food (beef), Sun PM- one whole rat


*I may not have the proportions right for two ferrets to eat, but a cat generally eats 4 oz of the raw pet food in the AM, another 4 oz at nighttime. I may supplement the pet food with some extra bone or heart or organ/muscle meat if need be. I'll do more research in proportions before getting my ferrets, such as if one whole rat is too much/not enough, and if not enough I could put in an ounce or two of the raw pet food

I'm going to assume for now that the grinds are indeed properly balanced. Variety wise and balance wise that looks great. The only issue is your proportions. Ferrets' intake can vary pretty widely by individual BUT the average is 2-4oz per ferret per Day. Females typically eat less and males typically eat more. So, not too far off on your commercial raw days, but the whole prey days you may end up with a lot of leftovers. An adult rat (RodentPro XL Rat) feeds my 2 boys for a full 24 hours - sometimes with leftovers. Half a rabbit (adult rabbit, degutted, skinned) lasts my 2 boys several meals. 1-2 adult mice is usually a meal for my boys, depending on the time of year (they eat less in summer, more in winter) and how hungry they are. Sometimes 4 mice will last a whole day, other days if they are feeling like little piggies it will only last a meal.

I'm really on the fence with live feeding just for pricing and stimulation it provides. I'll definitely take my questions and concerns to the live feeding board though so I can get more in-depth with it



Thank you so much hurricanekatt!

That's what we're here for! Just glad I can help! (dance)