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Post by katt on Sept 6, 2014 2:33:47 GMT -5
A few notes...the scruff test isn't the most reliable method of testing for dehydration. Most ferrets' scruffed will stick a little bit. A severely dehydrated ferret will have a scruff that doesn't go down after being pinched. A much better test is seeing if the gums are tacky.
The oil limo is to prevent loose stools, lack of nutrient ansorptjon from food passing through too quick with the loose stools, and risk of prolapse goes hand in hand with loose stools.
If they are accepting FDR, then you can ditch the kibble. Rehydrate the FDR and mix it into a soup consistency. Then you can start mixing raw soup into the FDR soup a little at a time, gradually replacing the FDR entirely with raw.
I would avoid canned foods. There's no point in feeding them if you are feeding a raw diet. Even high quality canned foods are still processed and have preservatives. Seems rather counterintuitive to put all that into their bodies when part of the benefit of raw is NOT having all of that junk....
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Post by raynebc on Sept 6, 2014 3:29:32 GMT -5
They're not on a fully raw diet yet though, so I'm seeing there are some benefits to canned food compared to kibble: 95% meat is higher meat content than any kibble on the market, and is similar to commercial raw in that respect. Vitamin E (ie. "mixed tocopherols") is commonly used as the main preservative in decent pet foods, and canned foods need less preservatives to begin with, not to mention less filler binding ingredients like starches since it doesn't have to maintain a solid shape. It also doesn't dehydrate them like dry food.
You are right that wet FDR is still better though. However I still don't know if it is recommended to introduce them to wet FDR daily for several days before leaving it for them in place of kibble, even just as a trial run during the evening. For wet FDR, should I follow the water measurements given on the packaging or is it better to start it as a thinner soup like you mention?
Edit: They each ate a couple tsp of the venison canned food. They both seem to like it pretty well, I'll have to keep this in mind for protein selections later on. My Dad is a hunter and has a ton of frozen elk steak. They are extremely lean cuts though so they almost certainly don't have enough fat. He also has some of it ground up into burger, and that has some suet (beef fat) added so it will clump better, but I don't think it's a lot. Does anybody feed their fuzzies elk or venison? If I fed it to them in the future, would I just have to mix in enough fat from another protein source (ie. some people here use duck fat) so that it's suitable for their diet?
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Post by raynebc on Sept 7, 2014 4:41:42 GMT -5
Just as other had seen with their ferrets, mine seem to be going through coat changes. Reska had started shedding weeks ago, but seems mostly finished with it. Her fur is noticeably longer and she's extra soft now, and she appears a bit lighter in color now. Copper has just started shedding within the past week or so, and still is because I vacuumed their pen out last weekend and there's plenty of white hairs on the ground again. His new fur is coming in brown, which is pretty different from the cream coloring with silver streaks he had in the Summer.
They cleaned their food dish out this evening, down to the last crumbs of quail FDR and even the FD lamb lung so I'm pretty happy that they eat those proteins easily enough. And a couple hours later I fed them more venison, which Reska really seems to like now. She wolfed down 2-3 tsp in one brief sitting, right out of the dish, she didn't even require spoon feeding. Copper seemed a little less interested than she did, which is funny because originally those roles were reversed. It may have been because he was the one that cleaned the food dish out earlier and he just wasn't very hungry yet. He had about a tsp, so I left the rest in the cage to see if he polishes it off shortly. They may be familiar enough with this consistency of food now that I can try making their first soup a thicker, pate style soup.
Before I hit the hay I think I'll increase the FDR content of their food dish a bit when I refill it. I've mostly been breaking up the FDR clumps, but I'll leave some more larger, kibble-sized pieces in the dish.
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Post by raynebc on Sept 9, 2014 12:58:50 GMT -5
Not much to report on yet. They're still eating a mix of Epigen 90 DS, Orijen cat/kitten, Evo and quail Archetype. Reska had a green poop this morning, and one of the droppings from overnight was a light tan color. I'll need to keep an eye on her.
I haven't offered them wet FDR yet, pending answers to previous questions, but when my blender and scale arrive I'll try to make a raw chicken soup and see if I can get them to eat any.
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Post by raynebc on Sept 10, 2014 1:30:44 GMT -5
The equipment arrived, so I spent an hour after work checking out a few grocery stores to see what meats were available. It wasn't much of a problem finding chicken thighs, chicken livers or even gizzards, but plain old chicken hearts seem to be too exotic for the regular stores here. Tyson does sell a package of hearts and gizzards, but of course specifies on the label that it's mostly gizzards. I've got a couple other grocery stores to check before I have to branch out to ethnic markets or actual butchers.
Commercial chicken sold in the US isn't allowed to have steroids or hormones used, but of course that doesn't count out antibiotics. One of the other two grocery stores I need to check out is likely to have organic chicken, but I have no idea how much it will actually cost. A website I just read claimed that commercial chicken is also required to undergo a withdrawal period where it's without antibiotics long enough for there to be none left in the system when the chicken is slaughtered. Considering most of the pet food they've eaten so far has probably been made with this "normal" chicken, how much do I need to be worried about non-organically raised chicken? If it was as simple as picking up one over the other, it wouldn't be such a big deal, but it's likely that this distinction would significantly limit my meat sources.
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Post by katt on Sept 10, 2014 11:58:56 GMT -5
They're not on a fully raw diet yet though, so I'm seeing there are some benefits to canned food compared to kibble: 95% meat is higher meat content than any kibble on the market, and is similar to commercial raw in that respect. Vitamin E (ie. "mixed tocopherols") is commonly used as the main preservative in decent pet foods, and canned foods need less preservatives to begin with, not to mention less filler binding ingredients like starches since it doesn't have to maintain a solid shape. It also doesn't dehydrate them like dry food.
Yes, canned is better than dry kibble but you have said that your ferrets will eat FD raw, so I don't see why they are still getting the other more processed foods.
You are right that wet FDR is still better though. However I still don't know if it is recommended to introduce them to wet FDR daily for several days before leaving it for them in place of kibble, even just as a trial run during the evening. For wet FDR, should I follow the water measurements given on the packaging or is it better to start it as a thinner soup like you mention?
I'm not sure I understand your question. If they will eat FDR, then there is absolutely NO reason whatsoever to continue feeding them kibble OR canned food. To give them wet FDR, soak it in a little warm water, then add a bit more and mix it up until it is a nice soup to grind consistency. They'll probably take better to soup consistency at first, and you can use that as your "medium" to start mixing in regular raw soup a little at a time.
Edit: They each ate a couple tsp of the venison canned food. They both seem to like it pretty well, I'll have to keep this in mind for protein selections later on. My Dad is a hunter and has a ton of frozen elk steak. They are extremely lean cuts though so they almost certainly don't have enough fat. He also has some of it ground up into burger, and that has some suet (beef fat) added so it will clump better, but I don't think it's a lot. Does anybody feed their fuzzies elk or venison? If I fed it to them in the future, would I just have to mix in enough fat from another protein source (ie. some people here use duck fat) so that it's suitable for their diet?
They can learn to eat any meat that you introduce to them. Venison is perfectly fine. The only meats to avoid are carnivore meat, wild boar/pork, and wild rodent. Anything else is fine. Why would you need to mix in fat? Feed it as is.
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Post by raynebc on Sept 10, 2014 12:46:32 GMT -5
The Elk meat cuts I mentioned are very lean. Given that fat is supposed to be their primary energy source, I'm under the assumption that lean cuts (as opposed to whole cuts like chicken thighs with the skin still on) aren't a good idea unless the fat content is supplemented. If this isn't correct, please do let me know.
Can wet FDR be left with the ferrets for 6-8 hours like other raw soup? The amount of time between when I leave for work in the morning and when I get home is often closer to 9 hours, will the wet FDR stay good for that long? If it sits out for too long, would the ferrets avoid eating it, like they would with regular raw food? Will wet FDR stay moist enough for them to eat over that duration of time or would I need to try something clever like making a small pool of water or some ice cubes at the bottom of the dish?
Between the two partial bags of Archetype (chicken and quail) and the bag of FDR Stella and Chewys (duck), I probably have around 1.3 - 1.5 pounds of FDR on hand. How long would that typically last for two ferrets? I'll go ahead and get a package of rabbit Archetype (about 0.5 pounds), since it seems common to leave a supplemental food if not leaving wet raw meat with the ferrets all day long.
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Post by raynebc on Sept 11, 2014 1:10:57 GMT -5
I spent another hour and a half scoping out other groceries and a couple ethnic markets. The latter didn't have squat, but one of the grocery stores had a surprising variety of different meats, but still no animal heart by itself (just the common gizzard+heart mix) and the other grocery store does actually usually carry cow tongue but they were out. I've read that tongue is usually high enough in taurine to be able to replace heart, but I don't know how reliably they keep it in stock. I scoped out a local butcher online that has good standing on Yelp and the BBB, so I'll try to check it out in the next day or two.
If for some reason animal hearts can't be obtained by themselves, would it be close enough to get the heart+gizzard mix and supplement it with a bit of taurine powder? I understand that excess taurine is urinated out of the system so I don't have to worry about putting in a little too much as long as the ferrets' minimum requirement for it is met.
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Post by katt on Sept 11, 2014 1:43:11 GMT -5
The Elk meat cuts I mentioned are very lean. Given that fat is supposed to be their primary energy source, I'm under the assumption that lean cuts (as opposed to whole cuts like chicken thighs with the skin still on) aren't a good idea unless the fat content is supplemented. If this isn't correct, please do let me know.IF you are feeding a balanced and varied diet then they will not be deficient in fat. Elk should not be the majority of their diet. I feed my boys Caribou and Moose regularly - both are extremely lean meats, I never add any extra fat, and they are both perfectly healthy (barring chronic diseases that have nothing to do with nutrition). Wild ferrets eat plenty of lean meats in their diet: You don't want to overdo the fat. Can wet FDR be left with the ferrets for 6-8 hours like other raw soup? The amount of time between when I leave for work in the morning and when I get home is often closer to 9 hours, will the wet FDR stay good for that long? If it sits out for too long, would the ferrets avoid eating it, like they would with regular raw food? Will wet FDR stay moist enough for them to eat over that duration of time or would I need to try something clever like making a small pool of water or some ice cubes at the bottom of the dish?Yes, wet FDR is like raw soup. It will be just fine in their cage for 9 hours. If ANY food goes bad they should typically avoid it [except kibble which is covered in a "delicious" smelling flavored rendered fat that is designed to hide the dry flavorless rock underneath and is equally good at hiding anything else underneath]. Yes, it will dry out some, because water evaporates, but no you don't need to do anything about that. I would not add extra water or ice cubes as you'll just make it TOO soupy and at some point your goal needs to be to replace the FDR soup with raw soup, and then THICKEN the soup as you start to add chunks. It's not going to hurt them if it dries a little. Just give them fresh food in the am, a little when you get home before work, and before bed. Between the two partial bags of Archetype (chicken and quail) and the bag of FDR Stella and Chewys (duck), I probably have around 1.3 - 1.5 pounds of FDR on hand. How long would that typically last for two ferrets? I'll go ahead and get a package of rabbit Archetype (about 0.5 pounds), since it seems common to leave a supplemental food if not leaving wet raw meat with the ferrets all day long.I have no idea. One bag of Stella and Chewy's PATTIES (not the little crunch pieces) lasted my 2 boys almost a week.
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Post by raynebc on Sept 11, 2014 13:36:11 GMT -5
The problem isn't just that Elk is lean in general, but my Dad butchered the meat to cut out most of the fat that it did have, so it's probably comparable to "extra lean" chicken/turkey breast from a grocery store. Some of the less common meats (ie. bison) are readily available in ground format. With ground meat, they report a fat content, what would be the general goal for this? I understand that having one fat-deficient protein may not be that big of a problem when the other proteins are sufficiently high in fat, I just have to be able to know they're getting enough. Is the goal to have their diet average out to a certain amount in the way that 20% is a common target with ferret kibble? If I buy cuts of meat from a butcher and no fat/protein content is reported, are there ways I can know the fat content is high enough (ie. if I can see fat on the outside of the cut it likely hasn't been over-trimmed) or are certain cuts of meat considered to be reliable in their fat content?
Originally I was going to consider commercial wet raw, but since shipping it is so expensive, and local selection of it is so limited, I think in the long run it's best for me to go with frankenprey. I'll likely continue to provide FDR between feedings because they probably won't try to stash it.
Since typical frankenprey menus seem to not focus on any roughage, is the one or two eggs per week considered enough for their blockage prevention and proper stool health once they're eating the right amount of bone? I still have the oil-based (no petroleum, no sugar) laxative. If I can't get them to eat raw egg anytime soon, is it still OK to administer the oil-based laxative once a week? Would that be a good enough replacement for petroleum jelly in an emergency, or is the latter considered more effective? I have some plain petroleum jelly on hand, I'd just have to double check that it has nothing else in it. I also have a can of pure pumpkin for emergency use.
Let me know what you think about resorting to taurine and muscle meat as a replacement for heart if it can't be found locally. I'm still looking for a full butcher shop, since meat stores usually just carry the more mainstream meat products.
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Post by katt on Sept 11, 2014 21:16:33 GMT -5
If you can't find hearts then beef tongue is the next best meat source of taurine. Taurine supplement is 500mg per ferret per day.
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Post by katt on Sept 11, 2014 21:41:15 GMT -5
The problem isn't just that Elk is lean in general, but my Dad butchered the meat to cut out most of the fat that it did have, so it's probably comparable to "extra lean" chicken/turkey breast from a grocery store. So? lol It's fine, I really think you are way over-thinking it. Unless you are making elk a majority of their diet, which you shouldn't be anyways as they can't eat elk bones, then there should be NO problems. I do not advocate adding extra fat to any meats unless you are specifically trying to add weight. And honestly, you have to keep in mind as well that most Americans like their pets cute and chubby and as a result the "average" weight of pets in the US is not necessarily the healthy weight. Too much fat in the diet is just as detrimental to them, and being overweight is absolutely detrimental to their health. Some of the less common meats (ie. bison) are readily available in ground format. With ground meat, they report a fat content, what would be the general goal for this? I understand that having one fat-deficient protein may not be that big of a problem when the other proteins are sufficiently high in fat, I just have to be able to know they're getting enough. Is the goal to have their diet average out to a certain amount in the way that 20% is a common target with ferret kibble? If I buy cuts of meat from a butcher and no fat/protein content is reported, are there ways I can know the fat content is high enough (ie. if I can see fat on the outside of the cut it likely hasn't been over-trimmed) or are certain cuts of meat considered to be reliable in their fat content?Again, you are way overthinking it. We don't have a milligram and calorie list of exactly what amount of every type of nutrients they need. There is no magic number as to grams of fat per week that a ferret should get. Keep in mind that long before kibble was created domesticated ferrets were raised for ferreting - the hunting of rabbits - and they were fed a diet that was extremely heavy in rabbit meat. Rabbit is almost devoid of fat, it is incredibly lean. Also think about grocery store meats - raised to be tender and juicy, animals who mostly sit around in small quarters on a meat farm...compared to a wild prey animal who is constantly on the move, running and foraging for survival... Who's going to have more fat - the couch potato cow or the triathalon athlete mouse? Again - if your ferrets are getting a BALANCED and VARIED diet, they should not be deficient in anything. Pork and duck are two very fatty meats. If you are That concerned, then incorporate those meats into their rotation. If you supplement with any oils, those are Fats. Don't remove the skin from meat, buy fattier cuts (they tend to be cheaper anyways since humans usually prefer the lean cuts). Originally I was going to consider commercial wet raw, but since shipping it is so expensive, and local selection of it is so limited, I think in the long run it's best for me to go with frankenprey. I'll likely continue to provide FDR between feedings because they probably won't try to stash it.Who says they won't stash FDR? lol Stashing is just part of owning ferrets. Feeding dens and hooking the meat to the cage are two helpful ways to reduce stashing. But you will never eliminate stashing. FDR, while far better than kibble, is still not true raw meat. It is also addictive to many ferrets, like kibble, and if you continue to leave it out they will stuff themselves on that instead of eating their MUCH better raw meats. FDR can be helpful as an intermediate between kibble and raw, it is far healthier than kibble, but it is still a processed food and the goal if you are going to feed Frankenprey is to wean them OFF of the FDR entirely, except perhaps to use small bits of FDR as treats or emergency food AFTER they have finished the switch. If you keep offering it during the switch, they will be far more resistant to switching as they will hold out for the FD over the raw. Just leave the raw out during the day. Do you free roam? If not, then only feed them in the cage and close off access to the cage when they are out - problem solved. If you do free roam, then learn where stash spots are, and check them regularly. Commercial raw has its benefits, but is IMO still inferior to Frankenprey. It is more expensive, and as pet food it is far less regulated than human grade meats. If you feed commercial grinds they are also not getting ANY dental benefits (you will have to brush teeth daily), and they will not be able to build up important neck and jaw muscles in chewing. Commercial Raw is a great way to add variety to their diet as you can often find harder to get meats like guinea pig, quail, pheasant, etc. It isn't a bad option, but it is lacking in some of the benefits of Frankenprey. Since typical frankenprey menus seem to not focus on any roughage, is the one or two eggs per week considered enough for their blockage prevention and proper stool health once they're eating the right amount of bone? I still have the oil-based (no petroleum, no sugar) laxative. If I can't get them to eat raw egg anytime soon, is it still OK to administer the oil-based laxative once a week? Would that be a good enough replacement for petroleum jelly in an emergency, or is the latter considered more effective? I have some plain petroleum jelly on hand, I'd just have to double check that it has nothing else in it. I also have a can of pure pumpkin for emergency use.Bones provide roughate. General rule is no more than 1-2 eggs per ferret per week. Any more than that and you will throw off the balance of their diet and give them runny, sloppy stools with an increased risk of prolapse. I would not exceed 1 egg per week per ferret unless it is shedding season when you can (CAREFULLY - watch the stools) go up to 3 per week but only temporarily NOT long term. There is no need to give them a regular laxative. It simply isn't needed. Raw is wet and keeps them well hydrated and slips easily through the intestines, it keeps the intestines hydrated and lubricated by default of them being properly hydrated, the bones help to push stuff through as well as massage the gut lining and provide stimulation for health and lubrication. Oil as a weekly supplement is fine, but it is NOT for laxative purposes. Salmon and fish oils contain fatty Omegas that are good for skin and coat health. Olive Oil contains antioxidants that *may* help to prevent ulcers. Do NOT feed a petroleum jelly except in emergency - as in you very much suspect your ferret could have a blockage or partial blockage, and no oil in no way replaces Vasoline in an emergency. Pumpkin should be used alternated with the Vaseline. Eggs are sufficient for ingested hair during shedding season. Trust me, ferrets are perfectly adept at pooping on their own. lol A regular laxative is NOT needed.
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Post by raynebc on Sept 12, 2014 0:33:35 GMT -5
I called several meat shops today looking for leads, but haven't ending up speaking with an actual butcher shop yet. One of them is able to special order chicken hearts, but only in 40 pound cases. I'd have to buy a standalone freezer if I was going to start buying individual frankenprey items in such bulk amounts, I wouldn't have enough space to store it otherwise. That same shop does sell chicken backs and necks though, just in frozen blocks instead of individual pieces, which probably doesn't matter. Beef heart seems available if I had to substitute that, but given how they don't care for beef liver, I don't know if they'd like beef heart or tongue any more. I may have found a couple actual butchers though, so I'm going to try to contact some tomorrow.
If you're that sure lean meats aren't a problem, I won't worry about it then. As Elk are not carnivores, is there any significant reason to worry about parasites surviving in wild Elk meat after a long freezing period? Are the needs for protein variety met by simply providing just different animal muscle meats (ie. can all of their non-liver organ meals be beef if that's all that's available)? A taurine supplement should be easy to mix into raw soup so if I can't get chicken hearts in just a couple pounds at a time and the ferrets refuse to eat beef, I'll have to fall back onto the supplement as an option.
They don't really free-roam, but they have a large pen that covers about half the size of a bedroom. So far I haven't witnessed my ferrets stashing FDR anywhere, at most they leave a stray piece or two just outside the bowl. They both seem to prefer eating out of the dish instead of putting the food on the ground first. As with soup, I imagine it would be something that I'd need to feed the ferrets somewhat regularly so they remember it's food if I need them to eat it?
As for eggs being considered a complete meal, does that depend on them eating the shell with it, or do they just make up the calcium in one of their normal bone-in meals?
Edit: They ate most of the FDR Stella and Chewy's duck that I'd mixed into their food this morning, so I upped the amount of it this evening. I want them to be used to a few proteins and then I'll try leaving them wet FDR. I tried brushing their teeth a little bit but they were both revolted at the idea. In the past I'd bought some Marshall's ferret toothpaste, but I decided to read the ingredients before I used it and it lists "essential oils" so I guess it's going into the trash. I think I'll contact them to complain about their use of such harmful ingredients in their ferret hygiene products. They get Oxyfresh in their water, which helps prevent gum disease, but it doesn't seem to claim to do anything about dental health. What's a recommended tooth cleaning paste/solution to use? Or are there tricks like just wetting the toothbrush with water and putting a drop of salmon oil on it to make them interested?
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Post by raynebc on Sept 12, 2014 13:59:28 GMT -5
Oxyfresh makes a pet gel that is supposed to clean teeth, but it is brush-less and rinse-less which by my understanding, all enzymatic tooth pastes are. I wouldn't have to be concerned about brushing the teeth as much as getting it on their teeth so it can do its work. I couldn't tell if any of the active ingredients are different from their oral solution that I already use, so I emailed them to ask. Enzymatic toothpastes have some antibacterial properties, and I understand nothing is better than them cleaning their teeth naturally with edible bone, but until then, is this type of toothpaste considered safe?
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Post by raynebc on Sept 13, 2014 3:47:56 GMT -5
After an email conversation with Oxyfresh, it seems that their pet oral solution and the pet gel have the same active enzymatic ingredient, so it seems that using it in their water will provide the regular benefits of brush-less toothpaste. This should be good enough until they start eating gizzards and bone.
The ferrets had pretty much cleaned out their food dish when I got home, so I prepared them their first re-hydrated FDR meal with the Stella and Chewy's duck, duck, goose. Reska, the good girl that she is, ate a good tsp of it almost right away with minimal coaxing. I spent a while trying to get Copper to eat and I got him to at least taste it before I left the dish in their pen to eat at will. A few hours later I checked back on it and it seemed it was going away a little at a time. I added a little warm water and stirred to get it back to baby food texture and fed them a little more one on one. Reska ate some more but Copper still seemed hesitant. Then just a half hour ago, I added a little more warm water and stirred it again and Reska ate the last couple tsp worth. At this point she was wolfing it down right off the plate. It seems she's just about gotten the hang of it. I saw Copper pass a BM in the litter box so I know he at least got a meal's worth out of it in secret, since it was the only food they had available to them for a 7 hour window.
I didn't get around to calling more meat shops, I'll have to see if any are open later today. I'm also considering getting a freezer chest so I'll have all the storage space I'll ever need for meat. I'm assuming 7 cubic feet would be more than adequate for 2 ferrets' meals, right? Given how hearts are more or less scarce in my area, I think it would be best for me to keep taurine powder on hand in case of an emergency like a power outage spoiling my meat supply.
Since wet food is still relatively new to them, I think I'll leave them a small amount of kibble/FDR mix while I'm asleep until they both eagerly eat wet raw. Since they're accustomed to the chicken and quail FDR, would it be worth rotating proteins yet or should I try to stick with the duck for a while? I also got my rabbit FDR in the mail so I've got another protein available. Would it be fine to introduce this new FDR to them wet, or would they need to have it mixed (wet or dry) with a food they're already used to in order to ease them into it?
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