6 months sick - now with new issue!

[Deleted]

How do you determine when a sickie is ready to give up? I have seen 'the look' once before when I had to put Gir to sleep so I do know 'the look'. But when that isn't there, how do you know?

So I have had a sickie before, but different than this. Bandit, who passed 2 days before Christmas this last year, had been sick all his life (he was almost 5). We did everything we could for him for 4 years but we never found out what was wrong, then one morning he was just gone. It was a hard pill to swallow, but at the same time it was a relief as I knew my boy was no longer uncomfortable. But with Pogo it is different. Pogo is now 5. After Bandit passed 6 months ago his health started to decline. At first I think he was just depressed as Bandit was his last original brother and they were close. But soon he became sick. We have run extensive blood tests, done X-rays, and implanted him with DES, but nothing is working or being revealed. Pogo had gained a lot of weight after Bandit passed which kept him rather sedentary which hasn't helped things. I have also noticed that over the past year or so I have been able to feel Pogo's bones more easily, almost as if he was losing muscle over his body. But it has only been the last 6 months that he has seemed ill. I'm sure past of the issue is that he is a senior now, but everything has been happening so fast. Pogo has been on pred for about six months now and his appetite has been good, he just doesn't want to play or really do much of anything. I can tell that he feels bad and is maybe even in a bit of pain, but I don't know what to do for him. The last thing my vet suggested was to do an ultrasound just to take a look, but then like with Bandit we have exhausted all our options. At this point I'm beginning to wonder if we should consider just letting him go. But every time I think this he does something to make me think he isn't ready. He does still like to eat.0, he is still curious, he is still aware, and occasionally he even still digs at his usual spots ( he has always liked to dig at things). I just don't know what to do. I hate seeing him like this but I don't know if he is ready to give up.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[unclejoe]

What's the pred for? I guess you know that if he had lymphoma or insulinoma he'd get pred for those, but it's also used for pain. What signs does he show that he's in pain?
The ferrets I've lost to aging slowed down very gradually. A couple have gone blind but kept active. When Moe passed, his buddy Rocket went 3 months later. He was never the same, and I think he was going blind, too. One day he peed blood which is a sign of kidney failure, and he was not getting around well, so we took him in. Idk if it would have been better to let him go at home.

For us, as long as they have some quality of life we let nature take it's course. If they get to the point that they can't even get themselves to the litter box, that's a sign that they are ready. That's not the same as no longer using the box, because most of them just became incontinent to some degree toward the end.

[Deleted]

1 f1nd 1t very d1ff1cult to offer adv1ce on th1s 1ssue, as everyone sees th1ngs d1fferently, but we all have one th1ng 1n common. We only want what 1s best for our Beloved l1ttle ones.

1 can only tell you that 1f Pogo were m1ne, 1 would let Nature take 1ts course. 1f Pogo 1s eat1ng, 1nterested 1n h1s world around h1m and not 1n any pa1n, 1 would treat h1m w1th Love and make h1s l1fe as comfortable as poss1ble. L1ke a Loved Older Grandfather, 1 would surround h1m w1th attent1on and enr1chment, let h1m watch h1s world from a soft and comfortable place and g1ve h1m as many hugs and k1sses as he w1ll allow and pray for a peaceful, eventual pass1ng 1n h1s sleep.

My thoughts are wth you 1n th1s d1ff1cult t1me and remember that we are all here for you.

Stef

[Deleted]

unclejoe - Pogo is on pred for IBD. He's had gastrointestinal issues most of his life, but up until recently it would only be nasty flare ups then he would be back to normal. Because he hasn't been well in a while we decided to put him on pred to see if it helped at all. Honestly, I don't think it has helped much. He doesn't have diahreah anymore (which use to be a problem for him) but I haven't seen any other changes. As for pain symptoms - he grinds his teeth a lot, he's rather lethargic, he squeaks/grunts when he poops and moves around too much, etc.

@poncesmom - that would be a nice ending that I would love for all my boys. It's pretty much how we treated Bandit til his death. My only issue here is that I think Pogo is quite uncomfortable and possibly in pain, and I can't stand seeing him like this every day. Can ferrets be put on indefinite pain meds?

Thank you for the advice/info!!!

[unclejoe]

Sounds like Prissy. But even being blind and deaf she still gets around, knows where we sit and will come looking for treats or soup and can still find papers to go on tho not always. She's well over 7 and we and she aren't there yet. This will have to be your call, but I'm sure we can all respect your decisions. We know how hard it is.

[Deleted]

Ferrehol1c, 1 really don't know 1f pa1n meds can be 1ndef1n1te. However, sadly enough, you already know Pogo has the Ra1nbow Br1dge 1n s1ght. So, 1 would ask my vet for just a l1ttle more pa1n meds. Not everyone w1ll agree, but personally, 1 bel1eve 1n eas1ng any poss1ble pa1n, for e1ther humans or an1mals.
Qual1ty of L1fe 1s a touchy subject and everyone has the1r own bel1efs. However, as 1 sa1d earl1er, 1 personally would want to g1ve Pogo, some more t1me and keep h1m as comfortable as poss1ble.

[unclejoe]

I won't ague threre. Booboo was on pain meds at the end and it definitely helped his quality of life.

[Deleted]

Thank you for talking with me!

A little after I wrote this topic I took Pogo to the vet to see about pain meds as he was having a really bad day - for the first time ever he is refusing to eat on his own. Our vet said that we could keep Pogo on pain meds indefinitely, and that he would be willing to do so as long as it seemed to help and if we could find a dosage that wouldn't keep him sedated (we are looking for quality and sedation still isn't quality). I syringes him a little food and gave him some pain meds and he is OUT. Tonight he still wouldn't eat on his own but he took a bit more by syringe than he did earlier. We are going to experiment with the pain meds over the next week to see what happens. Also, our vet said we were down to two last ditch efforts - an abdominal ultrasound and exploratory surgery. Honestly, at his age I'm not really looking to do an exploratory, but we are considering the ultrasound. The question us - will we find anything, and if we do can we treat him, and would we be willing to (for example giving chemo of its lymphoma of some sort). Again, I just don't know what to do here.

And of course, Pogo is feeling horrible today but on the way to and from the vet (an hour drive round trip at best) he fought so hard to get out of the carrier. He had so much spunk! And he seemed stronger than I gave him credit for. He just confounds me!

[Sherry]

I am so sorry you are going through this with him And I am glad your vet is going to allow longer term pain meds. What I've used here is buprenorphrine. Vet would normall prescribe .1 every 8-12 hours but I found 3X a day sedated too much, so gave twice a day. When I noticed breakthrough signs during the day is when I would then give .05 in between. That is when you know time has now become very limited.
If, with the pain meds, he is able to eat, toddle about, and still explore then stay with him. On the other hand he is no longer able to do these things, then it is time.

[Deleted]

@sherry - thank you! Yes, the bup stuff is what was prescribed at the same dose (.1 2x daily). So far this dose has really sedated Pogo so we are trying .05 once a day to see how that goes. Pogo is a little guy, one of the Marshall minis, so we might even have to go a tiny bit less but we will see. We have been stringing him food sice yesterday, and today I finally got him to eat a tiny bit on his own, but he has only eaten maybe .25 oz of his CG since yesterday. The thing that angers me is that Natures Variety chose the absolute most wrong time to change their formula - they have stopped making/shipping the cat/ dog version of their CG and now I can only get the Dog version, which is different, and if course Pogo is the absolute most pickiest ferret in the world when it comes to his food.

[acodlin]

an ultrasound is non invasive and certainly can't hurt to do.. I will say that you shouldn't discount surgery because of age. Dean had 3 surgeries in the 5-6 year range and did very well. Naobi is 7 and just had exploratory done..

It's just about how far your willing to go and if you think he's strong enough to keep fighting. If you want to keep him comfortable, there is no shame in that. I think once they are ill, it's the beginning of the end, no matter what treatment.. it might buy them time, but usually doesn't cure. The pred will cause him to lose muscle mass, it causes joint pain and it makes you feel weak. I took it for 10 years and I can vouch for just how badly it can make you feel.

[Sherry]

Instead of .05 once a day try twice. It really doesn't hold for 24 hours. And it does take a couple days for them to get used to it. I think part of that is once pain free they catch up on some sleep

[Deleted]

I'm sorry, I got my amounts wrong - we were to give the bup at .05 2x daily, not .1, to equal .1 mL total for a 24 hr period. That is how much he was getting after his surgery, which we wanted him sedated then. We have done .025 2x daily for the past cpl of days, but I think he still doesn't feel well so we may do .025 3x a day and see how that goes, to equal .075mL total for a day. Do you think this is sufficient?

Also, I saw something new today and it has me a bit concerned - there are 2 small swollen spots about the size of a pea each right in front of/ around Pogo's anus. What could that be? It's not his rectum protruding but actual swollen-like nodules. They are kinda squishy but maintain their shape. I'm at a loss here.

[Thérèse]

Don't want to add to your worry but just will tell you about my first ferret Fudge, in case it is relevant, all though it may not be.

This story is from when he nearly 5yo. Fudge used climb through a hole in the back screen door and go out to explore. He never went further than the dog kennel, so it wasn't a worry. One day he had gone out and I thought I'd best check he wasn't doing anything unusual. As I was going out I noticed a little blood by the door. I picked him up and looked him over and it looked like he was bleeding from his bum. I grabbed the phone, called the vet and just said I'm on my way. Fudge got put straight in a carrier, I grabbed my car keys and we were out the door.

The vet is only a 5 min drive from me and we were seen almost as soon as we got there. I quickly explained what had happened as the vet is getting him out of the carrier. When the vet turned him over, I noticed a small lump, next to his anus, that had broken open and it was that lump which was bleeding. The vet saw it too, pointed to it and said that shouldn't be there. Because this is how it was discovered and it was broken open (assumed this was as he climbed through the door) I can't tell you what it felt like.

Anyway, he stayed overnight at the vets so he could have surgery the next day to remove it. Will keep this as brief as possible. He had the surgery. He lost a lot of blood during it and the vet could not guarantee he would make it through the night (considering he hadn't even been acting unwell prior to this, it was a very traumatic time). He did make it and when I picked him up the next day I got all the details. It was an anal gland tumour. The vet showed me what they removed. While it was only a tiny lump on the outside, inside it was huge, about the size of his head. The vet had had to remove part of his anus to get it all. He said he may never have feeling there and so may not know when he has to go to the toilet. He also said, because it was so big, while they got all they could see, he could not give any long term prognosis, as he may have cancer all through him.

What ended up happening. He recovered from the surgery, although he was a baldy butt for about 4 months before all the fur they shaved returned with his next coat change. It made him look like his tail had been chopped off and then tacked back on. When he first came home, he was so swollen and black and blue from the surgery, it was very disturbing. I did not take pix because I knew I would never be able to look at them. However once the swelling and bruising went down (about a week or two, this is well over 10 years ago) he was fine except for the bald butt. He did have feeling in the area but by the time I realised that, all litter training had gone out the window, and he is the only ferret I ever managed to have trained.

The dog down the street was diagnosed with an anal gland tumour in the same week that Fudge was. The dog (a dachshund) was not considered a good candidate for surgery because of it's age (think it was 11yo). I mention the dog for comparison. At the time, because there was recovery time etc. I thought the surgery may have not been worth it because I figured it was eating into the time he gained by having the surgery but after comparison with the dog, I deemed the surgery definitely gave him more quality time then he would have had but I still had decided that if cancer reared it's head again (per the vets warning that he may be riddled with cancer) I would not put him through another surgery. The diagnoses on both the dog and Fudge were in September. The dog died the following January. Fudge lived a happy life until the following December, when he suddenly went down hill at the start of December, it progressed that quickly, that I had him put to sleep on the 5th of December. So he lived another 14 months following the surgery.

Don't know if any of this will help with Pogo, but just in case it does, that's Fudge's story.

You and Pogo are in my thoughts and I hope you can find some answers to help you both.

[Deleted]

@therese - Thank you for telling Fudge's story, I very much appreciate it. I'm so sorry about poor Fudge but I am happy it worked out for him if only for a short time. As I was looking through possibilities on the internet I had found info on anal gland tumors as well and have it mind to talk to my vet about this week as I plan on taking Pogo back in for another check-up. Now with Fudge's story I have better info on the topic.