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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2014 23:42:32 GMT -5
I hope you are feeling better! No worries here!
Thanks, its slowly going away. I can finally swallow with minimal pain but... migraines are now on my plate.
I'm feeling pretty comfortable with the weekly meal plan. I feel comfortable enough to where I don't feel I have to be so rigid anymore, meaning I can see what they have eaten and adjust to increase for more bone - or a more lean meat in the case of Dottie and the fatty chicken...I switched to rabbit because it is much leaner than the chicken I had planned to give her. I have plenty of crushed eggshells just in case, I have a good source for chicken hearts and liver and a second good source for pork heart and liver and kidney and other things.
Sounds good! The entire process is nothing but readjusting for both parties-- you and the kids. Once you've readjusted to the new diet, its nothing but routine. Maybe later on you can find other organs other than liver and kidneys. But, as longs as it's liver and another organ, they'll be fine. Good to know that they have a good source of hearts
I have a question about chicken feet. I saw them at the market and wanted to try them next time I go. How do they "work" exactly? I mean there is no meat on them really right? Do you add some other meat with it or how do the ferts usually handle them?
Chicken feet is more bone than bone in. Since there is no meat on the feet, if you were to feed them, you would have to add a side of muscle meat. I believe the reasoning behind this is due to their stools. Too much bone and they have very dry stools.
Dottie is doing fine when she is out to play she is active and curious, etc. I think she is slowly becoming more "content" and she has become the most lovable or I'm not sure what to call it- she is so content to be with me and wants me to hold her and wants to sleep in my lap, etc..more than any ferret I've ever had. So sweet! I can't believe it considering how flighty she was initially but Strax is your typical crazy kit. He us so funny and follows Dottie alot when they are out. She is definitely the one in charge. They are so different. So maybe that's part of what I'm seeing. She is still having some loose stool it's getting better but still a little gooey. Color is more typical though. Appetite is fine too.
Yes so glad I will still have you guys even when I graduate. I will also probably post on the FB page more once I'm done here. So maybe I'll catch you there as well
Aww Dottie is a snuggler. They're the best, My Tiny was my snuggler... Pinky preferred his dad lol. Enjoy the snuggles! Some, if not most, ferrets become snugglers when they get older. Poop wise, I'm not 100% why her stools are still a bit loose. Maybe she's eating less bone than strax? Are they loose after a bone meal or more like a muscle or organ/ heart meal? If its the latter, it should be normal.
Here's a link to a poop chart: img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/withloveandsqlr/fh%20images/poopchart1normal.png
Does it look like any of the ones on there? Maybe Katt should poke her head in regarding stools. I'll give her a heads up. Most of the admins/ mentors are on the fb page as well. So if you were to have a question at anytime, you'd get a quicker response. =)
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Post by katt on Feb 18, 2014 21:41:58 GMT -5
Sorry my hard drive crashed and I have been sans computer until last night. Still getting the new hard drive all set up. For the poops, how soft is soft? Each ferret is different. It could be that she needs more bone. It could be that she isn't eating as much of bone that you are putting out. If the poops are mucousy, then there may be cause for concern as chronic mucousy stools can be a sign of IBD or other underlying problems. As always, pictures are helpful. Keep in mind as well that they are better hydrated on raw and their poops will not be as firm as kibble poops which tend to be on the dry side and then dry out more fairly quickly. But obviously you have 2 to compare to each other, so you have a better comparison... A note on the fat. She needs to adjust to the fat, and she needs to get the fat. Fat is a very important part of a ferret's diet as it is their primary source of energy. I honestly think that most of our frankenprey diets are pretty fat deficient because of how heavy in lean poultry they are. Rabbit has almost NO fat (also has next to 0 taurine too FYI). Pork is a great fatty meat, as is duck. Beef is good too if you don't buy lean beef. The skin on any meat is great to feed them because it has a lot of subcutaneous fat. It is also good to get fatty cuts of meat when you are shopping. They tend to be cheaper bc us humans don't like slimy fat on our meat, and it is better for the ferrets. Fat bits are a great treat too if you are cooking for yourself and trim the fat. In other words, I do NOT recommend cutting back on her fat. If anything work on building up her tolerance by gradually adding in more fat to their meals. Supplements... J covered that pretty well. Think of them as medications. If you are feeding a balanced diet, and have healthy ferrets, there should be no need for supplements. A few quick notes... - Probiotics are good if you have a sick baby, if someone just had a course of antibiotics (they help to kind of "reset" the gut flora), or a ferret with IBD or similar GI issues. Plain Kefir is a good probio. - Reishi has anti-inflammatory effects and is good for IBD and supposedly mast cell tumors, of which your babies should have neither. I haven't had any luck with it for MCTs, but it does help with IBD flare ups. Again, I really only suggest using this as needed. - Taurine - if you are feeding proper amounts of heart as well as a variety of meats (dark meat is high in taurine so stuff like backs and legs are really good for them) you should not need any taurine. It is good to have some on hand in case you ever run out of heart ans can't find any at the store though. Other supplements should not be needed as your babies are young and healthy. Some stuff that you may consider having on hand, but don't need and certainly should not give daily... Rescue Remedy is good to have on hand for stressed out babies. Slippery Elm is a tummy soother, but it is also a tummy coater and thus interferes with nutrient absorption. Not a bad idea to have some on hand for upset tummies, but best saved for fairly severe GI irritation. ALWAYS keep some plain Vaseline (100% pure petroleum jelly) and a can of canned pumpkin around (Ingredients: Pumpkin and water - NOT the pie filling) in case of a blockage scare. EGGS are best for hairballs. Oils.... Oils are fantastic. They help to fill in some of the missing fats in their diet and really boost their skin and coat health. Salmon oil or fish oil are best. Extra Virgin Olive Oil is also good and may help reduce the risk of ulcers in humans (and thus *may* have similar benefits in ferrets, but we can't say for sure). You can also use an oil mix. Adding a little olive oil to the salmon/fish oil really helps to cut down the smell. Rule of thumb for oil is no more than 1tsp per ferret every 3 days. Same as egg, you can judge by their poops. You can give less and spread it out a bit more, and you can give a little extra if they are really dry or are shedding. But watch their poops. If their poops are too soft, cut back on the oil. (You can also get a dropper bottle and use it as a healthy treat. By dispensing just a few drops at a time you can use it as a treat, that is healthy, without them typically getting too much and having loose stools.) Oil is a great supplement and is the one thing that I DO suggest offering on a regular basis.
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Post by katt on Feb 20, 2014 13:32:17 GMT -5
Checking for updates
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2014 15:14:59 GMT -5
Sorry for the delay. I had another abdominal flare up and back to the doctor. new meds. adjusting my diet. ugh. Lots to update! I went to the Asian market and got duck feet, duck wings and I picked up Cornish hens at the grocery store. I could hardly stand the smell of the duck feet (mostly bc I wasn't feeling well) so I thought they wouldn't touch them. I added ground turkey with them and they ate them up! Especially Dottie. The hen seemed to have more fat on it and they were hesitant with the wings for some reason but loved the back. I also gave them duck wings for another meal and they ate most of those as well. And they look so healthy! So here are poops from last night after the duck feet and ground turkey : There are varying colors but the consistency is ok. They seem to vary with the different meals like they should. I was trying to give it a little time to normalize after that little episode Dottie had. I will try to take pics each day for the next week and see what you guys think. I am very comforted by how healthy they look and soft they are. They have such good muscle tone and thick fur. But I will keep watching them closely.
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Post by katt on Feb 23, 2014 3:36:37 GMT -5
You guys are doing fantastic! (dance) I think you are just about ready to graduate. Can you please post a "final" menu?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2014 4:45:47 GMT -5
Lots to update! I went to the Asian market and got duck feet, duck wings and I picked up Cornish hens at the grocery store. I could hardly stand the smell of the duck feet (mostly bc I wasn't feeling well) so I thought they wouldn't touch them. I added ground turkey with them and they ate them up! Especially Dottie. The hen seemed to have more fat on it and they were hesitant with the wings for some reason but loved the back. I also gave them duck wings for another meal and they ate most of those as well. And they look so healthy!
Hi Shannon. Thanks for the update! Duck feet & wings and cornish hen! Sounds great. Adding on the ground turket was good, since feet have no meat on them. Glad to hear that Dottie dug right into them. Still hoping that you can find a secondary organ for the kids. Feeding a balance diet will make them look 100 times better than they were when they were on kibble and they'll become active and happy. Poops looks pretty decent. Just wanted to make sure that the stools are still consistent and no longer loose before we gradaute you. If they still are a bit loose, we can discuss it a bit further and monitor them. But, so far they look pretty good.
So, graduation is right around the corner (dance). With this being said, we need a final menu. Similar to the one you've shown us before. Heather will look at your final menu, and you will have to answer 5-6 questions on things we discussed. Such as: Taurine, Bone, Organs, Balancing a menu, Health, and a General ferret question. I will discuss it with katt on when to show you the questions. If you want we can talk about the topics if you do not feel comfortable answering the questions just yet. Let us know and we can do a small review if you'd like, but in the mean time.. get the final menu ready.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2014 19:05:07 GMT -5
I have been through a h*ll of a time the last few days! Huge flare up in my back. The ferrets have been nicely fed, no worries! I get sick of having to report these things but they happen. Went to pain doc today to get some relief.
So back to the diet. I would like a chance to review the info I have accumulated and then review things with you guys. Right at this moment I don't feel ready to answer questions without a review. I can post a menu easily bc I keep one running so I can keep track. Does that sound ok?
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Post by katt on Feb 26, 2014 21:57:18 GMT -5
We were starting to worry! I suspected you we having trouble, I hope you are feeling a bit better for now. Glad to see you back. We can absolutely review things, the whole point of the final menu and mini quiz are to ensure you understand it all. Doesn't do anyone any good to force you to answer the Q's and graduate you if you aren't ready. At the same time, we will eventually have to push you out of the nest so you can fly. hehe I think you underestimate how well you are already using your "wings" though. You are doing great. And yes, please post a menu. What specific questions do you have/ topics you want to review?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2014 14:14:27 GMT -5
I want to review the specific nutrients each meat or organ provides or why they need it. I have lots of notes to review but any additional info is welcome. The kids are doing great! But out of the blue there will be this one poop that looks runny in the middle of a bunch of good ones. I will post what I am talking about. This is what all the poops looked like in the boxes. Then this one was there... The only one like this in all of the boxes! This happens off and on and I haven't found that it is related to any one meat or organ. Unfortunately I lost my saved menus on the iPad ! There was some kind of error and it wiped out my saved folder. So I don't have the data to really analyze. So I'm starting over. I've had to put off the vet...again...due to my stupid health problems but will hopefully feel up to it by the weekend. If not Ill just have to get some help. It's just been an overly crazy month! I'm hoping for some sanity in March!!! But they look and act great! Here they are in my lap taking a little rest
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2014 7:15:53 GMT -5
Hope everything is well. I had a feeling you weren't feeling 100% when you weren't responding. Glad to hear that you got meds to help.
We'll be glad to review. As Katt said, no need to toss you out of the nest without a little knowledge. I want to review the specific nutrients each meat or organ provides or why they need it. I have lots of notes to review but any additional info is welcome. Hmm.. Good question! Let's see if I can answer this.. Katt.. Correct me where I'm wrong. Heart: Since this is a blood pumping organ, or some call it a muscle, it's full of taurine. This organ is needed because ferrets, like cats, are suceptible to cardiomyopathy (congenital heart failure or CHF). There are 2 different kinds of cardiomyopathies- One where the heart walls thicken (hypertrophic) and the other is where the walls of the heart thin out (dilitative). The first one, hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, is caused by taurine deficiency while dilitative cardiomyopathy is where the walls of the heart begin to die. Why, I'm not exactly sure why but, this was the form of cardiomyopathy Pinky had. Cardiomyopathy (dilitative) is believed to be a genetic trait while hypertrophic is caused more by a deficiency. It's also more uncommon than dilitative. Cardiomyopathy is something that is hard to deal with. It's heart breaking to watch the personality traits your baby had begin to disappear as the months pass by . This is also good in Potassium, Phosphorus, Iron, Omega-3 and -6, and has some Vitamin A, great source for vitamin B. [Taurine is found in dark meat (weight bearing bones... so the legs), brain, and lungs.] Moreover, taurine helps fat digestion of fat soluble vitamins, helps growth, and keeps the brain hydrated and active. When it is given with zinc it also helps keep eyes and vision healthy.
*Now Should you run out of hearts or the store does not have any, do not panic... add 500 mg (250 mg during breakfast and 250 mg for dinner) of taurine. You can find taurine at a health store or online. I've used NOW brand, 500 mg Taurine capsules found on amazon. If you go looking for taurine at a store, you'll find something called L-taurine. The L pertains to the rotation the amino acid does under polarized light. There are two types of polarized light rotation, D (right) and L (Left). Thing is, these companies fail to realize that taurine has NO rotation in polarized light because it does not polarize. -facepalm- Sorry for the chemistry lecture but wanted you to be informed of this should you encounter it. When you look for taurine at a store, like vitamin shoppe, look at the ingredients as some companies add on other things such as vitamin b6, calcium, etc to name a few. Look for one that says taurine only. You don't want them to have too much of something. Also, buy the ones that come in a capsules not the tablets. The capsules are easy to slip off of one another and just sprinkle half of this and reclose it for later. The tablets you'll have to cut and grind into powder.
Organs- Liver: it has the most concentrated source of vitamin A as well as vitamins D, E, and K in substantial quantities. Liver is an excellent source of the minerals zinc, manganese, selenium and iron. It also contains all the B vitamins, good source of vitamin C. Liver provides a source of good quality protein and the essential fatty acids, both the omega-3 and omega-6, Kidneys: vitamins including A, D, E and K. Kidneys are a rich source of iron and all the B vitamins. They also have good levels of zinc. If you'd like other organs, I can include them in a later post.
Bones: bone-in is composed primarily of calcium phosphate, bone marrow, trace minerals, and protein. As ferrets are carnivores, they require a high protein diet... and well everything that is being fed has protein. So yay! (dance)
*Remember, if you should run out of bones, which I highly unlikely, add 1/4-1/2 tsp of powder egg shells per ferret.
Now, Deficiencies... Potassium deficiency is link to the cardiomyopathy. Pinky was on potassium supplements to keep his levels stable. Deficiency in Potassium is called hypokalemia. Now, there is something called hyperkalemia which is too much potassium, which can be found when in a male adrenal ferret. If your ferret cannot pee, this is an emergency as the levels of potassium in the body being to increase and diffusion occurs and too much potassium will slow the heart down until it stops. Not to scare you, but better to know this information while they're young. For all the vitamin deficiencies, Sherry has complied all them with symptoms! Bookmark this page: holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/1222/vitamins
I think this is enough to read and take in. Have any questions,if you need clarification of something, or if you'd like more info... do not hesitate.
Almost forgot the poops! Lol, they look good. The one loose one, I wonder what might've caused it. But if it continues, let us know. Regarding the app, that really sucks. You can also have the menu set up on excel. But that's just me. I love excel Hope I didn't overwhelm you with the information.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2014 15:37:15 GMT -5
Awesome! Awesome! The more info the better I copied and pasted into my journal app for review. I have recreated the menu as well. It wasn't hard to do. I just lost what I had been feeding for the week and my memory sucks! But I am also wondering if Dottie needs more bone than Strax. I started offering more meat with a little bone, meaning even the just meat days there was a bone option in there somewhere and I noticed she would go after it, well actually they both did. As long as their poops aren't too hard could I continue to do this? Prior to this I would debone any meat on non-bone days. But if it is like a breast and a thigh on a meat day, is it ok to just leave that bone in the thigh? I have also found a hiding place for bones that Dottie has so maybe sometimes she doesn't always eat them right away. Anyway, we are doing a pretty good job I think! . I will post our tentative schedule for this week after I fill it in.
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Post by katt on Mar 1, 2014 20:36:53 GMT -5
A quick note on the taurine - the reason it is so vital is that ferrets and cats cannot synthesize their own taurine. It is for them an essential nutrient, meaning that they MUST get it through their diet. Lungs btw are a GREAT source of vitamin B and iron. We don't *technically* include them under the "organ" category for diets, but if you ever come across some I would feed it as you would an "other organ" (non-liver), but don't replace too much of your kidneys and brains and such. nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3471/2Brain is also super high in taurine, and is packed full of other nutrients. Vitamin B, Niacin, Pantothenic Acid, vitamin C, minerals, etc. nutritiondata.self.com/facts/pork-products/2182/2J's in charge of answering your poop Q.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2014 3:19:50 GMT -5
I started offering more meat with a little bone, meaning even the just meat days there was a bone option in there somewhere and I noticed she would go after it, well actually they both did. As long as their poops aren't too hard could I continue to do this? Prior to this I would debone any meat on non-bone days. But if it is like a breast and a thigh on a meat day, is it ok to just leave that bone in the thigh?
I have also found a hiding place for bones that Dottie has so maybe sometimes she doesn't always eat them right away.
Poops... I believe you may be correct regarding Dottie and her eating less bone than Strax. You may offer more bone-in as long as their stools do not become too dry. Dry poop = too much bone while loose stools (although not always true... more on this in a bit) = not enough bone. Now I said this isn't always true. You might want to keep take note of dottie's stools after eating organs, hearts, or meat only and/or when she has loose stools. Maybe backtrack and crush some of the bone and hand feed some to dottie? Not sure if she'd accept it but worth a shot to make sure she's getting enough bone. But then again you said the stools were typically normal except a few here and there. Like I said, keep trace of the stools and let us know =)
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Post by katt on Mar 2, 2014 4:07:00 GMT -5
Just one note to add: start keeping very close track of what you have fed when she has these poops. It's a bit hard to tell from the picture, but it almost looks like the poop may be a bit mucousy? If so, it could be a sign of some sort of inflammation - in other words, she might be sensitive to a protein. Keeping track of what you feed every day like you have been (that sucks you lost so much of it ) is really good - start adding a poop record if you haven't already. You may start to see a pattern emerge. For example... Does she get those poops every time she eats pork? Maybe she only gets those poops if she has 3 chicken means in a row. Make note of anything that might be stressing her out on bad-poop days too. I wouldn't think they would be stress poops with them happening semi frequently, but it is always a possibility - some ferrets are more sensitive than others.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2014 11:55:36 GMT -5
Here is my meal plan for next week! Bon a petit! I put a notes section and a section for poop notes. I haven't figured out if I can save a picture on it yet but that would be great!
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