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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 19:32:50 GMT -5
As the title suggests, I have a ferret with cystine stones in her bladder and kidneys. She is 4.5 years old and has been eating Zupreem grain free for a couple years now. She was diagnosed in January of this year and the only signs she has ever shown is green urine. It was not even the reason I took her to the vet!
I consider her vet to be highly knowledgeable of ferrets and has done hundreds of surgeries, including two adrenalectomies on a previous ferret. However, her knowledge in the subject of cystine crystals/stones is limited. After having ultrasounds of her abdomen done a few times, the last of which revealed stone formation in her kidneys, my only options offered were surgery or pulse antibiotic therapy. She didn't recommend surgery since she was having no clinical signs. So I've been rotating between 3 antibiotics every 2 months for her bladder wall inflammation and been trying to find more information on these stones.
I've read some of the stories shared on here and the tragic end some ferrets have faced due to being blocked. My vet is co-owner of a very busy clinic so I'm kind of on my own here but do get very worried that this will evolve into either kidney failure or blockage. I also have a wrench to throw in here.
About one week ago I accidentally left a cage door open to her Ferret Nation and she became a sort of punching (or scratching) bag for one of my cats overnight. She has healed very nicely from this but also sustained a nasty broken canine tooth. It was broken in half from root to tip and also cut in half width wise leaving the pulp exposed. I had taken her to my work when this happened (a different vet with little experience with ferrets compared to the vet I've been taking her to) and it was recommended to have it pulled. She is doing great in regards to her tooth; she's eating, drinking and doing great without any pain meds which she had initially been taking.
So I have a two-part dilemma. I am going to try to get a second opinion from another vet regarding the stones, and if she can even have surgery. Has anyone else had a good outcome from a situation with stones in the kidneys and bladder? Thanks for reading.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 19:47:50 GMT -5
Hi and Welcome. I'm so sorry about your little one. She's certainly going thru alot. I have no experience with Kidney stones and bladder issues, I just wanted you to know I'll be crossing my fingers that all will turn out okay. Did the vet comment on the green urine? Some of the more experienced ferrents will weigh in soon.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 19:52:08 GMT -5
Thank you. It's funny about the green urine because my older ferret who had other health problems also had green urine and the vet had no idea what it meant. I need to go back in his records to double check but I don't think he had any urinary crystals or anything which is weird.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 20:09:25 GMT -5
These type of stones are primarily caused by diet.
Get her off that food immediately, the Zupreme Grain Free is what's causing the stones, it has been well documented over the past 8-10 months, if you search you'll find several threads with members feeding this food suddenly having stone issues, probably due to a change in formula. It's believed that Marshall Farm mill ferrets have a genetic predisposition to the stones, which is exacerbated by the high content of peas in that particular food, and possibly one or two others.
There's a sciency explanation but I don't remember all the particulars, basically high sulphate food items like peas mess with the ph levels of the urine and cause stones to form. You need to transition her to a different grain free kibble as quickly as she is safely able to go. We only recommend Wysong Epigen 90 and Orijen cat here, from personal experience I feel that the Go! Fit & Free is an alright food or the Nature's Variety Instinct Raw Boost kibble in a pinch. Please avoid Evo Cat/Ferret as well, there has been a lot of problems with it lately due to recalls.
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Post by Sherry on Jul 8, 2013 20:17:01 GMT -5
I second getting her off that food immediately. One of our members, ferreholic lost two ferrets to kidney stones due to this food, another justahannah had to have surgery for her guy. He was lucky. A good number of vets have started talking amongst themselves about this particular kibble and the problems it's causing. It's the green pea combined with the sweet potato that are causing the cystine stones. At the very least for now, get her over onto a wet food, any kind of soup where those two products either aren't in it, or are in very low amounts.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 21:32:01 GMT -5
Can either of you provide any sources regarding this food causing this? I'm all for changing diet based on past experience of others but am curious as to if there is any actual documentation out there to speak of. I could not find much regarding these stones. I asked my vet in the beginning if diet could be a part of it and she didn't think so. *sigh*
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Post by Sherry on Jul 9, 2013 0:59:58 GMT -5
Let me talk to a couple of others. I haven't experienced this since I don't feed kibble so it's not personal experience.
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Post by Sherry on Jul 9, 2013 1:01:49 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 5:13:24 GMT -5
Of the people affected, I know one of them's vet was going to be looking into the problem more, doing research and speaking to other vets I believe. Not sure what the final conclusion was, if any.
One or two ferrets on the same food developing stones is a coincidence. When you start having three, four, five... ten reports of ferrets on the same food having the same problem, one can draw a logical conclusion. We've had several people on this board reporting this issue, and I've seen it mentioned on other boards elsewhere as well. And these are only the people actually noticing the issue, or bothering to post about it online, a potential issue could be much more widespread than this.
Also, I had a cat several years ago who had a similar issue with stones when my mother had switched to feeding our cats Purina. We rushed him to the vet when he totally blocked up. He was the third cat she had seen that WEEK with the same issue on the same food. (Mind you this is in a small town with a population of about 15k) When we confronted Purina with the vet's analysis, they sent us a small check with a condition that if you cashed it, you waived your right to sue.
So they knew their was an issue with their food and that their food is crap. Pet food companies don't give a rat's arse about your pet and are only out to make a buck with as much profit as possible.
I would recommend using the forum search function to look for other threads about this issue and see if you can find the one where someone's vet was really getting involved and contacting them about what the end result was. I have to go to work and don't have time to look for you. At any rate, Zupreme isn't a good food nutritionally anyway, so even if you don't believe in the connection between it and stones, at least pick a healthier option like Orijen.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 8:23:08 GMT -5
My Jack (DIP) was one of the first on the forum to have the cystine stones - two forums ago. Luckily, my vet was able to clean up his bladder via surgery and a switch to a raw diet prevented them from coming back. If you go back through the posts I've made about the subject as well as the posts I've replied to, there is abundant information in all of them. The frequency of these in ferrets has quadrupled (from my observation and IMO) in the last year or two - which coincides with the increased demand for "grain-free" foods. Grain-free foods are still jammed with veg. matter and that typically comes in the form of peas, pea protein and sweet potatoes - both ingredients are a rich source of dietary sulfur - methionine. In mammals, several enzymes convert methionine into homocysteine which then either gets converted back to methionine or to cysteine. Simple oxidation of cysteine then forms the cystine dimer (the form that crystallizes). The cystine crystals precipitate under acidic conditions which is then further exacerbated by peas' effect to increase urine acidity. My vet worked pretty hard researching the subject, but at the time there was very little information. She did find a colleague at Berkley (i think) who told her ferrets fed a natural diet, complete with whole prey (mice specifically) seemed to prevent such issues. She's a great vet and I'm sure if your vet reached out to her, she would be happy to pass along any info she was able to dig up.
Dr. Kathleen Cavell @ Northwood Animal Hospital Their office manager's email practicemanager@northwoodanimalhospital.com
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 8:45:56 GMT -5
It's not letting me upload a chemdraw figure ( a diagram of the chemical process i'm talking about) but I suspect the problem with our farm ferrets is that they are unable to re-absorb the cystine, as other mammals would normally do. I'm just a chemist, so it's easy for me to speculate about biology. But I do know, after Jack passed from non-bladder issues his necropsy showed that he had a congenital heart problem as well. The farms are created genetically sick animals. Period.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 8:58:42 GMT -5
Thank you everyone for the info! Looking into diets today and hoping one is in my area to buy vs online. Surely I will let my vet know about this and pass along that contact info.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 10:41:00 GMT -5
Arekearu, just wanted to let you know, I just ordered the Wysong Epigen 90 (until i can make the switch), it was only about $16 for a three pound bag. You can Amazon it, but i found it at Pets.com. The other thing that I wanted to mention is the green urine. I'm not trying to alarm you, but the green urine might signal an issue. Google it or look for a thread here on the HFF. If you have a copy of ferrets for dummies, there is a mention in that. Your vet should use the urine as an indication to look a little further into your fuzzies health. One of the more experienced ferrents may weigh in, on this. I hope so. Since everyone talked about the peas in the kibble, you are using, I wonder if that might be why the urine is green, I hope so, it's just that everything I've read about green urine indicates you might want to do some more research.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 12:00:39 GMT -5
Ugh.. Not another kid with stones. I wish you well with this situation and I hope your fuzzbutt is able to make a full recovery. If you need any help with diet change please do not hesitate to post all of your questions here. This forum is filled with fantastic mentors and 'diet gurus' (as I like to call 'em lol).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 17:50:56 GMT -5
I just purchased Wysong Epigen 90 from their website (which was cheaper than anywhere else I checked) and was able to get free shipping. =) She has never had problems with changing diets and I hope it will be the same this time. Thank you!
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