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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2013 16:42:52 GMT -5
OK thanks again!! I'll update you at some point this weekend. Probably tonight. Clearly I am an over-updater lol
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Post by katt on Mar 1, 2013 16:52:32 GMT -5
No, you are fine! Trust me I far prefer that to not enough updates! The more I am kept up to date the better.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2013 22:58:32 GMT -5
No go on straight raw. They're eating it with 3/4 raw, 1/4 freeze dried though.
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Post by katt on Mar 2, 2013 2:04:46 GMT -5
That's okay, it's still progress and they are so close! Are you able to get heart Abd liver in town? I forget.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2013 12:51:41 GMT -5
Haven't been able to find them but I can order them from Hare. I need to order more chicken and turkey anyway. I still have the venison and rabbit. They ate the plain raw i put in their bowl last night while I was sleeping. This morning Theodore was hogging it. I'm home all day and watching closely. They seem to eat whatever i put down after they realize its all they're going to get (the method you told me). Fingers crossed!
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Post by katt on Mar 3, 2013 13:27:10 GMT -5
Yay! Good fuzz! Now to the next matters of business...balance, and their teeth. First of all, are you still wanting to stick with purely commercial raw, or are you willing to move forward to chunks and bones? I would highly recommend introducing chunks and bones, even if the commercial ground is the primary diet source, for a few reasons. One is they are very young, so introducing new foods is easy now but is only going to become more difficult later. If you ever change your mind about chunks, it will be much easier if they already recognize whole meat as food. When they are young is the time to introduce anything and everything that you want to have the option of potentially feeding them in the future. The second reason is their dental health. Commercial ground isn't that great for their teeth, they do get some small bone chunks and such in the ground meat, but the thing that really cleans their teeth is sinking their chompers into a chunk of meat or slicing through a bone so it can scrape the tartar off of the tooth's entire surface. Even if you are just able to offer whole bones 1-2 times a week, it will be drastically better for their teeth. The commercial raw can still be the majority of their diet, but I would highly recommend adding at least one meal a week of bone-in meats. If you do not feel up to this, it can always be done at a later time, it will just be more difficult later - but still completely doable! If that is the case though, you will need to start brushing their teeth regularly to prevent plaque buildup. There are various types of toothpaste and brushes that you can use, and honestly it's something that doesn't hurt to do anyways. The next thing is balance. Some of the commercial grinds don't have organ, and even the ones that do you really don't have a guarantee as to how Much organ meat there is. Same goes for heart, and commercial grinds tend to be a little low on heart for ferrets' needs anyways. Keeping this in mind, it is best to offer 1 meal a week of heart and 1/2 - 1 meal a week of organ meat when feeding commercial raw. If you are sticking with the commercial raw for this (totally fine) here are some things to make note of: The GROUND CHICKEN ORGANS are NOT organs. It's heart (muscle), liver (organ), and gizzards (muscle). While the heart and gizzards are good, it would not count as a full heart or full organ meal. If you gave this you might want to feed say 3 meals of this a week. Or 1-2 meals of this plus another meal of one of the other organ grinds. You can mix and match it as much as you please, as long as it balances out properly. www.hare-today.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_45&products_id=67The GROUND RABBIT ORGANS are 2/3 organs (liver and kidney), 1/3 heart. It is a great mix. This you might feed once a week with an additional meal of all heart for another meal. www.hare-today.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_45&products_id=234The GROUND BEEF ORGANS are a mix of organ (liver, kidneys, lungs) and muscle meat )heart, gullet and trachea) so you could give this for a meal, and consider it approximately 1/2 an organ meal, then feed one other meal of roughly 1/2 organs (say the chicken or rabbit organ meals) and another meal of heart. www.hare-today.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_45&products_id=41The GROUND BEEF PANCREAS is a great organ source, but keep in mind that HALF of the organs should be liver. So you could purchase the pancreas, and mix it in the blender (or whole if you move to chunks) with an equal amount of liver meat. That could then be used for one complete organ meal. www.hare-today.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_45&products_id=43OTHER ORGANS that you can order from Hare Today are whole kidneys and liver. These can be "ground" in the blender, or if we introduce them to chunks, fed whole. A complete organ meal would be half liver, and half other organs. So you could feed half liver, then half kidney. Half liver and half pancreas. Or half liver, 1/4 kidney, 1/4 pancreas. Feel free to mix and match it, keep it varied as long as the overall balance is kept intact. HEART: I would suggest ordering some heart from Hare Today. Whatever species you want to pick are up to you (pork, beef, chicken, turkey...) and feel free to pick multiple. You can never have too much heart on hand. It is super important for them as that is their primary source of taurine - which is an absolutely essential nutrient for their optical and brain function. It can be fed whole if you decide to, or you can always toss it in the blender (hearts and organs are super easy to blend). If you keep a supply on hand you can use it to give either one full heart meal a week, or to supplement the heart content of one of the organ grinds so that it equates to a full heart meal a week. Let me know if anything is confusing. Remember, the idea is to have (in addition to their commercial ground meals) one full meal of organ (1/2 liver 1/2 other organs) and one full meal of heart. I know it is a lot of information all at once, so don't hesitate to ask any questions!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2013 21:48:00 GMT -5
OK LADY that was a lot to process LOL!! I'm reading on my phone. I'm going to print this out from work tomorrow and get back to you. Thank you!!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2013 11:32:49 GMT -5
OK I think I got it. I'm going to place another order w/ Hare this week. I'm open to trying to chunks, as I am currently just tossing the ground in a bowl and they eat it like that (though I noticed last night that one of them *cough* SYDNEY *cough* was stashing pieces of the rabbit ground around the living room). Should I try to add chunks in with the grind and see what they do with it? Or simply offer them chunks and make them eat it that way, as I've done with the grind? Or does it matter? As far as bone goes, what do you suggest I start with? Hopefully something I can order from Hare, as this seems to be the most convenient method for me. I'm going to try to work up a "menu" based on what you've told me here, and confirm it with you before ordering anything. I want to make sure I'm doing it right. I will post this probably later today, as I am trying to do some actual work as well haha!!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2013 12:25:15 GMT -5
ONE QUESTION - on the ground rabbit organs you said it might be good to add an additional heart meal. Do you mean in addition to the already 1 full meal suggested? Therefore - 1 full ground rabbit organ meal, 2 full heart meals?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2013 12:54:59 GMT -5
This is what I have so far for an order (in my cart) 1 x Ground Beef Organs, 1 lb 1 x Chicken Hearts, 2 lbs 1 x Ground Rabbit Organs, 1 lb 1 x Ground Chicken/Bones/Organs, 5 lb 1 x Ground Turkey/Bones/Organs, 5 lb 1 x Turkey Hearts, 2 lbs 1 x Ground Beef Pancreas, 1 lb, back ordered, 2-4 weeks to ship 1 x Ground Rabbit/Bones/Organs, 2 lb 1 x Ground Goose/Bones/Organs, 1 lb 1 x Duck Hearts, 2 lbs 1 x Beef Liver, 2 lbs 1 x Beef Kidney, 2 lb 1 x Beef Heart, 5 lb What do you suggested removing/adding? Especially for something with bones. I'm trying to order a lot to 1) justify shipping costs and 2) be able to make bulk. Don't know if this is over kill though.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2013 13:00:32 GMT -5
crap another question - can you feed MORE than one meal of heart and one meal of organs?
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Post by katt on Mar 6, 2013 2:23:43 GMT -5
Okay sorry but I seem to be having Internet problems (again - I really wish they would fix this!) and working from my phone is a major pain. For your first Q when I say additional heart meal with the rabbit I mean one. So one meal of heart one of rabbit - because the rabbit mix doesn't have enough heart in it on it's own. As for your second question, as long as you are using the ground meat as the main diet I would say probably not, though the occasional extra heart or organ meal would be okay. Overall their diet should consist of 10% organ, 10% heart, 10-15% bone, the rest non-heart muscle meat. When you feed commercial ground they are getting some organ and heart in each meal but think of it this way. Say one chub (package) of commercial ground chicken is an entire chicken carcass. That chicken has one heart (using heart as an example but applies to organs as well, though heart even more so since there are more organs). That ONE heart is in the grind, which is then split between 3 ferrets over multiple days (they aren't going to eat the whole package in one day). That isn't enough to meet their taurine needs, so they will need additional heart. On a diet of NON commerciL raw, so frankenprey (BARF, RMB, whole raw) they would get 1.5 meals a week of heart (10% of 14 meals) and 1.5 meals a week of organ. On commercial grind they are getting the additional 0.5 meals of each from the heart/organ in theground meat. Adding one meal of organ and one of heart ia to buffer that and ensure hey get the full 10%. but if you go too far over 10% it isn't all that good for them. A little over is okay, but 2 organ meals in addition to the organs they get from the commercial ground meat would be a bit much. Now as you add chunks, you will be feeding less ground so there will be more room for additional organ. If you make chunks a larger part of their diet, you could consider adding another Half meal of organ, or another full meal every few weeks (but not every week). If you move to chunks entirely, you would NEED to give 1.5 meals a week of heart and 1.5 meals a week of organ EVERY week. Make sense? It is a lot to process. The key is maintaining the 10% organ 10% heart 10-15% bone. As for heart going over 10% isn't a big deal. Heart is a muscle meat, and the more taurine the better really. However it does have a high blood content and too much can make their stools too runny and increase risk of prolapse and upset tummy. So it is usually best to stick to 10-15% heart. As for the chunks I Really apologize but I will have to give you more details later. My hands are cramping haha I'll either get on later tonight if/when my Internet kicks back in or tomorrow with more info and more answers for you.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2013 9:36:04 GMT -5
I completely understand! I hate working on here from my phone as well. I think the only questions I have left are 1) what you already said - what kind of chunks do I start with/should I order (haven't placed the order yet), and 2) what do I do to get them started with bones.
Thank you for your explanations of everything! It makes it tons easier for me. I need that "whole picture" thing ;D
Edit! Does each ferret need to have an entire heart? or just one to share between all 3?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2013 12:26:17 GMT -5
OK I've cooked up 2 menus for you to tear apart and tell me I have all wrong HAHA! This is going off of what I'm about to order. If you suggest ordering additional things, I can do that as well but I need to go ahead and place an order as all I have left at home is a pound of ground venison. The following is what I have in my order, which is probably going over board but whatever it's easier to stock up:
1 x Ground Chicken/Bones/Organs, 5 lb 1 x Chicken Hearts, 2 lbs 2 x Ground Rabbit Organs, 1 lb 1 x Ground Rabbit/Bones/Organs, 2 lb 2 x Ground Beef Organs, 1 lb 1 x Beef Heart, 5 lb 1 x Ground Pork/Bones/Organs, 1 lb 1 x Ground Turkey/Bones/Organs, 5 lb 1 x Turkey Hearts, 2 lbs 1 x Duck Hearts, 2 lbs 1 x Boneless Bison Cubes, 2 lb 1 x Chicken Necks, 2 lbs 1 x Chicken Pieces 3 lbs 1 x Boneless Venison Cubes, 2 lb
*CG = Commercial Grind
MENU 1:
Sunday 1. CG - Chicken 2. CG - Rabbit Organs
Monday 1. CG - Turkey 2. Boneless bison cubes
Tuesday 1. CG - Rabbit 2. Chicken neck
Wednesday 1. CG - Pork 2. Boneless venison cubes
Thursday 1. CG - Turkey 2. Chicken wing
Friday 1. CG - Chicken 2. Beef heart
Saturday 1. CG - Rabbit 2. Chicken chunks
MENU 2:
Sunday 1. Bison cubes 2. Ground beef organs
Monday 1. CG - Pork 2. (bone-in chicken piece)
Tuesday 1. CG - Turkey 2. 1/2 CG Rabbit, 1/2 CG Rabbit Organs
Wednesday 1. CG - Chicken 2. Venison cubes
Thursday 1. CG - Rabbit 2. Chicken necks
Friday 1. CG - Chicken 2. Duck heart
Saturday 1. Bison cubes 2. CG - Turkey
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Post by katt on Mar 7, 2013 4:49:05 GMT -5
I completely understand! I hate working on here from my phone as well. I think the only questions I have left are 1) what you already said - what kind of chunks do I start with/should I order (haven't placed the order yet), and 2) what do I do to get them started with bones. Thank you for your explanations of everything! It makes it tons easier for me. I need that "whole picture" thing ;D Edit! Does each ferret need to have an entire heart? or just one to share between all 3? Each ferret does not need an entire heart, they Each need an entire heart MEAL (per week) - whether this means they get one whole pork heart each or 30 chicken hearts each. (I doubt one ferret would finish either of those in one meal btw! haha) To start them with chunks is usually a little easier than bones, though you are certainly welcome to try both - at the same time even if you feel up to it, or one at a time. It is essentially the same process as getting them from kibble to freeze dried and FD to ground raw. You start small, and increase in size and quantity. Usually for chunks the easiest thing to start with is boneless, skinless chicken breast. Any boneless meat is fine though. Take a boneless meat, and slice it into tiny slivers. Think the crescent of the white part of your fingernail. Mix this into the ground meat and/or scruff n stuff if needed. If they are eating the ground without additional water mixed in (soup), they should take to these slivers without any issue. They may not even notice them at all. The next meal, give them slightly bigger chunks of meat - about twice the size of the slivers - and again mix it into the ground meat so they are hidden. If they seem reluctant, scruff and stuff to show them that those strange slimy chunks are indeed food. Gradually increase the size and number of chunks. When they are eating fairly large chunks, try feeding them without the ground meat added. If they don't take to it right away, you can gradually decrease the ground until they will eat just chunks. Bone is the same process again. You will need something to crush the bone with. Hammer and strong scissors, poultry shears, or an ulu knife (my personal favorite) are typically what people use. They will be getting some tiny bone chunks in the commercial ground (have you noticed them crunching on them yet? ) so they will already be munching on bones some. The idea is to pulverize the bones into small, easily edible pieces, and expose the marrow (it's like nutritious candy once they recognize it as food!) at the same time. Typically the best way to introduce it is to scruff and stuff a small piece of meaty bone (perhaps some of the pulverized bone with a tiny bit of commercial ground around it, or a small bit of meat still clinging to the bone bits) that has MARROW. The first scruff n stuff is best if it has marrow - like I said, the stuff is like nutritious candy to them. Usually once they taste the marrow they will be much more interested in the bone. The first few times you will probably need to pulverize them pretty well (though some ferrets take to bigger pieces fairly quickly, so it never hurts to try skipping steps). Smash it up with the hammer, and then cut the pulverized bony meat into smaller pieces with some strong scissors or a good knife. Scruff n stuff, and mix into their regular food. Gradually crush the bones less and less so that they are eating bigger pieces. There are some bones that will always need to be broken for them such as chicken thigh bones, turkey necks, etc. Some ferrets can eat chicken necks whole, some can't. Usually just cracking the bigger bones once or twice to give them a starting point is enough once they have built up those chewing muscles. And they will need time to build those chompers up, so don't be too surprised if they don't seem to consume the entire bone at first even if they are willing enough to eat it.
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